Between Two Worlds: A Mix of Theology, Philosophy, Politics, and Culture



Tuesday, July 24, 2007

Origins

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This is a heavy week for me: among other things, I have to finish reading the 400+ page proofs for the forthcoming John Owen book, Communion with the Triune God, before I leave on vacation (Friday). So blog posting has been, and will be, light this week. Even though I'll be unplugged next week, this blog will remain alive and active (more on that later).

Due to the light posting, I thought it might be worth reposting something I wrote two years ago on Genesis 1-4 and the age of the earth.

* * *

Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Genesis 2:5-7, NASB)

Genesis 1-2 are two of the most contested chapters in the Bible. “Young-earth creationists” think it’s all rather simple, and that a face-value reading of these chapters inevitably leads to a belief that God created the world in six ordinary days. “Old-earth creationists” believe both the text and the world are more complex than this. And so the debate has raged.

In my view, interpreters on both sides have not paid enough attention to a crucial text: Genesis 2:5-7. Though I am unpersuaded of his “framework interpretation,” I do think that Professor Mark Futato of Reformed Theological Seminary—in his article “Because It Had Rained” (part 1 and part 2)—rightly discerns the logic of Genesis 2:5-7 and explains its role in OT covenantal theology. Futato sees a twofold problem, a twofold reason, and a twofold solution:

Twofold Problem (No Wild Vegetation, No Cultivated Vegetation)

1. No wild vegetation had appeared in the land.

2. No cultivated grains had yet sprung up.

Twofold Reason (No Rain, No Cultivator)

1. The Lord God had not sent rain on the land.

2. There was no man to cultivate the ground.

Twofold Solution (God Sent Rain Clouds, God Formed a Cultivator)

1. God caused rain clouds to rise up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.

2. The Lord God formed the man.

The “bush of the field” (siah-hassadeh) described in 2:5 are the wild, uncultivated, desert vegetation that grows spontaneously after the onset of the rainy season in the fall (Gen. 21:15; Job 30:4, 7). The “small plants of the field” (es eb-hassadeh) in 2:5 refer to cultivated grains like flax, barley, wheat, and pelt (Gen. 3:18; Exod. 9:22, 25).

Now note the reason these had not yet grown: because it had not yet rained. Ed in 2:6 is best translated as “rain cloud” (cf. Job 36:27). Its “rising from the earth/land” is from a human perspective. Clouds appear on the horizon (whether a plain or a mountain or the sea), thus giving the appearance of rising (cf. Ps. 135:7; 1 Kings 18:44; Jer. 10:13; 51:16).

A Contradiction?

If the above interpretation is on track, then there is an apparent contradiction, for according to Genesis 1:9-13, vegetation was made on the third day. But in Genesis 2, it is the sixth day and there is no vegetation.

Three options are available by way of response: (1) abandon harmonization; (2) abandon seeing a sequence of events (i.e., logic, not sequence, is the organizing principle—cf. the “framework interpretation”); (3) reexamine the Hebrew terms. Since it seems that harmonization is encouraged by Genesis 2:4 and by the doctrine of an inerrant Scripture, and because the numbering of the days one after another encourages us to think in terms of a sequence, the third option is the most viable.

There are two sets of terms, the reexamination of which would change our interpretation of the passage. First, we might argue that the vegetation referenced in Gen. 2:5 is not included in the reference of Gen. 1:9-13. Hence there is no contradiction. This is the option that most commentators (Waltke, Sailhamer, et al) seem to prefer. Though I tremble to disagree with such experts of Genesis, I just don’t find their arguments very persuasive. The vegetation (dese) described in Gen. 1:9-13, is broken down into two broad categories: seed-bearing plants (eseb mazria zera) and trees that bear fruit (es peri oseh peri). It seems that the vegetation described in Genesis 2 are a subcategory of those described in Genesis 1. The traditional idea is that the lack of tilling foreshadows post-fall work and the lack of rain foreshadows a post-fall flood. But this assumes that there was no agricultural work before the fall and that it didn’t rain until the flood. I definitely don’t think the latter is true (for the text tells us that it rained, and I see no reason to think the earth existed for over a thousand years without rain!), and I don’t think we can be dogmatic about the former (see Gordon Hugenberger’s Is Work the Result of the Fall? A Note on Genesis 2:15.)

The second solution would be to reexamine the term “earth” (eretz) in 2:5-6. It can refer to the earth as a whole (Gen. 1:1-2), the region of dry land (Gen. 1:10), or some particular region (Gen. 2:11-13). So perhaps eretz in Genesis 2:5-7 refers to a particular land (the Garden of Eden), whereas eretz in Gen 1:11-13 to the earth as a whole. In fact, that’s exactly the solution presupposed by the English Standard Version (ESV) translation, and I believe this was the correct decision.

Ordinary Providence

But note again the startling reason in Genesis 2:5-7 for why there were no shrubs or small plants in the Garden: because “it had not yet rained.” Note well: there is an explanation for this lack of vegetation, which is a reference to ordinary providence. To see the theological implications of this feature, we need to examine the context—of the ancient Middle East, of the original audience, and of the Old Testament as a whole. (Much of the following is dependent on Futato’s careful work.)

Geographic Context

Moses narrated these events for his audience, the people of Israel, who were living in Canaan prior to the exile. What was the climate like there? At the end of the dry season and after five months of drought, the hills in Canaan are dry as dust and the vegetation is brown. Plowing and planting are impossible because the field is as hard as iron. Then the rains come, and the hills of the steppe become clothed with verdure (Job 38:25-27), the soil is softened, and the farmer is able to plow and plant (Ps. 65:9-10).

Theological Context

The agriculture of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia depended upon irrigation from rivers. In Canaan, however, agriculture depended on rain (see Deuteronomy 11:10-11). Because the basic equation was “water = life,” this understanding influenced their respective theologies and religions. Hence, the religions of Mesopotamia and Egypt were concerned with river gods, whereas the primary god of the Canaanites was Baal, the storm god who was the “rider on the clouds.”

Fatuto points out that the “struggle against Baalism is part of the fabric of Genesis through Kings.” The Israelites had been led by Yahweh through the desert and the sea, but as they were set to enter the land of Canaan, the question became, “Is Yahweh also the God of Canaan?” The temptation was to inquire of the Canaanites what made their gardens grow, and hence to be drawn to Baal worship. The polemic against Baalism is at the heart of OT covenant theology. Covenant loyalty to Yahweh resulted in rain, vegetation, and life. Covenant disloyalty—worshipping other gods—resulted in no rain, no produce, and death (see Deut. 11:10-17). Therefore, as Fatuto writes, “the ubiquitous threat of Baalism provides the theological context in which Genesis 1-2 is to be read.”

Implications

If the above interpretation is accurate, Genesis 2:5-7 serves a significant polemical function, for it demonstrates that Yahweh is the true God of rain, over against the pretender god Baal.

I don’t believe that Moses was at all concerned about the length of time in which God created the world and prepared the garden. In fact, the church has not historically been overly concerned about such issues. But since it is a preoccupation of our scientific age to inquire into the duration of the creation account, responsible interpreters must eventually lay their cards on the table and reveal their position (even if they get accused of heresy in the process!).

So here’s my view: I believe that Genesis 2:5-7 decisively rules out the idea that the sixth day was a 24-hour period. If the sixth day is a 24-hour period, then the explanation for the lack of vegetation (namely, that it had not yet rained) makes no sense. The very wording of the text presupposes seasons and rain cycles and a lengthier passage of time.

Genesis 1?

Along with many scholars (Waltke, Sailhamer, et al) I believe that Genesis 1:1 is neither a title nor a summary of the following narrative. Rather, it is a background statement that describes how the universe came to be. The typical function of such a background statement (also found in Gen. 16:1; 21:1; 24:1) is to give an action that took place some unspecified time before the narrative actually gets under way. If Genesis 1:1 is a title or a summary, then Genesis does not teach creation out of nothing. The main point of the narrative (in Gen. 1:3–2:3) is the making and preparation of the earth for its inhabitants.

Many incorrectly assume that the creation of the sun, moon, stars, and light occurs in Genesis 1:3, 14, 16. But there is a distinction in the Hebrew words for create and make. For example, as Jack Collins points out, the Hebrew construction let there be is used in the phrase “Let your steadfast love…be upon us” (Ps. 33:22; cf. 90:17; 119:76). This obviously isn’t a request for God’s love to begin to exist, but rather to function in a certain way. Similarly, the sun, moon, stars, and lights were created in Genesis 1:1, but were made or appointed for a particular function in Genesis 1:3, 14, 16—namely, to mark the set time for worship on man’s calendar.

Evening and Morning

What then does the repeated refrain “evening and morning” in Genesis 1 mean? Many think it’s a reference to an ordinary, 24-hour day. But evening to morning isn’t 24 hours, is it? What is it? It is nighttime! It’s the same phrase used to indicate when an Israelite would take his daily rest (cf. Ps. 104:23; Gen. 30:16; Ex. 18:13). The daily rest in Israel looks forward to the weekly Sabbath rest.

When we take this insight, and then combine it with a proper understanding of anthropomorphic, analogical language, a solution begins to emerge. What does God do on the seventh day? Exodus 31:17 tells us that on the seventh day God “rest and was refreshed.” God—refreshed? It’s the same Hebrew word used for getting your breath back after running a long race (Exod. 23:12; 2 Sam. 16:14)! The reason it is not improper to say God was refreshed is the same reason it’s not improper to say that God breathes, hovers, is like a potter, gardens, etc (all images used in Genesis 1-2). God’s revelation to us is analogical (neither entirely identical nor entirely dissimilar) and anthropomorphic (accommodated and communicated from our perspective).

In essence, I agree with the great 19th century theologian Herman Bavinck:

“The creation days are the workdays of God. By a labor, resumed and renewed six times, he prepared the whole earth….” (Reformed Dogmatics, vol.1 , p. 500).

Another great 19th century theologian, W.G.T. Shedd, wrote about it this way:

The seven days of the human week are copies of the seven days of the divine week. The “sun-divided days” are images of the “God-divided days.” This agrees with the biblical representation generally. The human is the copy of the divine, not the divine of the human. Human fatherhood and sonship are finite copies of the Trinitarian fatherhood and sonship. Human justice, benevolence, holiness, mercy, etc., are imitations of corresponding divine qualities. The reason given for man’s rest upon the seventh solar day is that God rested upon the seventh creative day (Exod. 20:11). But this does not prove that the divine rest was only twenty-four hours in duration any more than the fact that human sonship is a copy of the divine proves that the latter is sexual. (Dogmatic Theology, p. 374).

In other words, the “days” of Genesis 1 are analogical and anthropomorphic. God is portrayed as a workman going through his workweek, working during the day and resting for the night. Then on his Sabbath, he enjoys a full and refreshing rest. Our days are like God’s workdays, but not identical to them. How long were God’s workdays? The Bible doesn’t say. But I see no reason to insist that they were only 24 hours long.

Who Else Holds This Position?

Variations of this view were held by Augustine, W.G.T. Shedd, Herman Bavinck (perhaps the greatest systematic theologian), and Franz Delitzsch (perhaps the great Christian Hebraist). It was also the most common view among the late 19th century and early 20th century conservative Dutch theologians. The most articulate and prominent contemporary defender of this view—whose arguments I have followed most closely—is C. John “Jack” Collins, OT chair and professor of OT at Covenant Seminary and the OT chair of the ESV translation. See his book, Genesis 1-4: A Linguistic, Literary, and Theological Commentary (P&R). Another contemporary advocate of this view is Vern Poythress, Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Westminster Theological Seminary. See his book, Redeeming Science: A God-centered Approach (Crossway).

56 Comments:

Anonymous Josh S. said...

Great thoughts, thanks Justin.

7/24/2007 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger Jake & Melissa said...

This is a good argument for the day-age view. A couple of things I'd humbly point out from the standpoint of a 6-24-hour-days guy:

1. It's just hard to get around Moses' using creation in 6 days, followed by a day of rest, as the model for Israel to have a seven-day week (Ex 20:11). Of course, there are many ways in which our "work" is different from God's, but the very point of comparison here is the length of the time. And I'm aware that "day" can mean different periods of time, but this view seems to me to reject the plain meaning of the text (clearly the way it was explained to Israel) in order to come up with an interpretation that seems more palatable to modern science.

2. Since true science (science that accurately describes the way things are) will never contradict the Bible, it is a good thing to look at science and the Bible together and see how they agree. At times science can even give us reasons to return to the Bible and reexamine whether we have interpreted it correctly. But the day-age view doesn't get you any closer to agreeing with secular scientists than the 24-hour-day view does. No secular theory talks about six successive periods of time, or about things developing in the sequence described in the Bible. So to me, the day-age view doesn't really give a good answer to the Biblical or scientific evidence.

Respectfully,
Jake

7/24/2007 09:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Ken Davis said...

"But there is a distinction in the Hebrew words for create and make. For example, as Jack Collins points out, the Hebrew construction let there be is used in the phrase “Let your steadfast love…be upon us” (Ps. 33:22; cf. 90:17; 119:76). This obviously isn’t a request for God’s love to begin to exist, but rather to function in a certain way. Similarly, the sun, moon, stars, and lights were created in Genesis 1:1, but were made or appointed for a particular function in Genesis 1:3, 14, 16—namely, to mark the set time for worship on man’s calendar."

Just a question regarding the above statement Justin made: How does this interpretation impact upon Paul's use of Genesis 1:3, in II Corinthians 4:6, to show what our coming to Christ was like? (6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.)
If "let there be" is not a creative act then is Paul saying that light already existed in us? I have always used II Corinthians 4:6 to defend the doctrine of conversion as a creative act of God in the heart. Have I been wrong?

7/24/2007 10:44:00 AM  
Blogger Bryan L said...

JT said, "Since it seems that harmonization is encouraged by Genesis 2:4 and by the doctrine of an inerrant Scripture, and because the numbering of the days one after another encourages us to think in terms of a sequence, the third option is the most viable."

Why is harmonization encouraged for an inerrant scripture? It seems if we come to texts always seeking to harmonize them against others (sometimes at any cost and sometimes producing strange or unlikely interpretations) then it seems we run the risk of making texts say something they don't or even not allowing them to say something they actually do.

Blessings,
Bryan L

7/24/2007 11:16:00 AM  
Blogger Mark and Maki said...

A technical but thorough critique of this view from a young-earth Biblical perspective can be found at: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n2/framework-interpretation-critique-part-one
By the way, why do you think Augustine held this view? I have never seen any clear proof of this.
Calvin, Luther and most Christians throughout history have held to the traditional 24-hour-day view. Is it just me or does it seem that the new exegesis is founded on the theory of Macro-Evolution? This is a big problem. I think it is one that we as Christians need to think more about.

7/24/2007 11:38:00 AM  
Blogger Mark and Maki said...

This got cut off:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/
n2/framework-interpretation-critique-part-one

7/24/2007 11:40:00 AM  
Blogger JT said...

Mark,

FYI: this isn't the framework view (as I mentioned in the post, I don't find it convincing).

It's a common accusation, without argument, that this exegetical argument is founded upon the godless theory of macro-evolution--and I don't think it's a mark of Christian charity to make such accusations.

JT

7/24/2007 11:56:00 AM  
Blogger Mark Hunsaker said...

JT,

It would seem that neither Jake nor Mark seem to address the exegetical approach itself, but rather they seem to jump to the conclusion that current scientific information may be influencing your thinking.

I can see from your approach that you instead were focused on the texts themselves. By sharing your study here, you have prompted me to delve deeper into the texts myself, and for that I really and sincerely thank you!

Nicely done!

7/24/2007 12:19:00 PM  
Anonymous dan erickson said...

I find Justin's essay to be very well reasoned and I am "almost persuaded." Ever since I was a high school student (fascinated by Henry Morris and "Scientific Creationism" at the time), I have found it difficult to imagine that all the things that happened on the sixth day could have occured in a 24 hour period. Still, if I had to choose one view of the opening chapters of Genesis, I would go with John Sailhammer and his "Genesis Unbound" (partly, I'm sure, because he was a great O.T. prof). Because I believe (contrary to Bryan) that to speak of the inerrancy of Scripture is meaningless unless we attempt to harmonize seemingly contradictory statements, I will continue to ponder and discuss these questions.

7/24/2007 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger Brian said...

To Mark and Maki -
In the last few chapters of Augustine's confessions he talks at length about the first few chapters of Genesis. He definitely didn't take the creation account as literally as most young-earthers, but saw it as more of an analogy that likely involved larger periods of time.

I've always been a 6/24 young-earther, but having read Augustine recently, I was challenged by how much he reflected on the phrase the earth was formless and void. He definitely saw creation ex nihilo as separate from the six days when God took pre-existing matter and turned it into the world we know.

Anyway, very interesting post. Food for thought.

7/24/2007 01:01:00 PM  
Blogger ChrisB said...

Justin,

I think this post proves you need to do more "thinking" and less "linking" on your blog.

7/24/2007 01:02:00 PM  
Blogger Jake & Melissa said...

Mark H-- I think you're reading me a little more harshly than I intended. I actually complimented JT's exegetical approach ("This is a good argument for the day-age view") . These are tough issues that take serious thought and study, and I didn't jump to any conclusions about Justin being influenced by scientific data. What I said was that I believe the day-age view, in its drive to harmonize exegesis and scientific data (a good goal), takes exegetical steps I don't agree with. I apologize (especially to JT) if I wasn't clear.

I did address the exegetical approach when I disagreed with JT's interpretation of Ex 20:11. I agreed that our work is not exactly like God's, i.e. it's an analogy, but suggest that the actual point of comparison Moses is making is in the length of time. Our work IS like God's in that we are to work 6 days and rest 1.

I have no doubt JT is looking for the best conclusion from the text. I am too, and I disagree on some points of what that conclusion is. I promise I don't think JT is a closet evolutionist or anything!

7/24/2007 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger rebecca said...

psst...

"Heavy weak" should be heavy week.

I hope you don't mind it when typos are pointed out to you. I only do it because I hate it when I do things like that and everyone reads it and no one tells me about it.

7/24/2007 02:18:00 PM  
Blogger JT said...

Thanks, Rebecca! Always glad to know.

But perhaps it was a Freudian slip!

JT

7/24/2007 02:25:00 PM  
Blogger Suzanne McCarthy said...

Justin,

In class a few days ago, Waltke specifically defined his position as "theistic evolution" in contrast to the "day-age" theory.

Of course, this depends on how each is defined. His new OT Theology is due out in the fall but we have a facsimile edition of the manuscript in the library, I could check to see what he says, if you are interested.

7/24/2007 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger DJP said...

“Young-earth creationists” think it’s all rather simple....

Ah, so. Right there, I know they're the Bad Guys.

Like those un-nuanced, simple-minded folks who think Biblical prophecy means what it says, and don't see the depth and grandeur and complex wonderfulness of how it doesn't (i.e. amillennialism).

Always hold your cards up until you're ready to lay them on the table. bro.

7/24/2007 06:09:00 PM  
Blogger Jake & Melissa said...

My goodness. And here I thought we were having a nice chat about creation.

7/24/2007 07:29:00 PM  
Blogger Mark and Maki said...

JT,

Is there a name for this view?
By the way, who is making accusations? I am simply asking questions. Augustine may not have been clear about his views on this as others were, but I still think there is a lot of theological dancing going on here. Can you please be a little more charitable to my honest questions?
What do you think about macro-evolution? Maybe that is the most important question here for me.

An honest seeker of truth,
Mark

7/24/2007 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger JT said...

Mark,

I don't know that there's a technical name for it. It could be called the analogical-days view. If I recall, Answers in Genesis has critiqued it somewhere.

You said that you're just asking questions. But you wrote:Is it just me or does it seem that the new exegesis is founded on the theory of Macro-Evolution? This is a big problem."It is just me" form of questions usually aren't questions for information; they are veiled accusations (as evidenced by your statement: "This is a big problem.")

To answer your question: I completely reject all forms of macro-evolution. What in my post would suggest that I hold to any form of it? My post was all about exegetical argumentation concerning the text itself. BTW, I may be wrong and I'm open to that! But I need to hear sound, exegetical arugments to be persuaded otherwise.

One of the reasons I cannot commend the work of places like Answers in Genesis is that, in my experience, those who have been influenced by them tend to be very quick to make assumptions and accusations and think the worst about fellow believers--which I think is most unfortunate. They also tend to see this as a litmus test for theological and scriptural fidelity.

JT

7/24/2007 09:31:00 PM  
Blogger Mark and Maki said...

Justin,

As your friend, I am sorry you see things that way. I am definitely not judging you but am making honest questions. Again, these forums are a hard place to have heart-felt interaction between brothers.
I think you know that I am an honest seeker of truth - Remember, you were the one who led me to Reformed Theology! Please remember who I am and that I am your friend. I have utter respect for your thoughts and words and always have.
That being said...
When you mentioned Answers in Genesis I noticed that maybe you have made some generalizations about people who are influenced by their work. Please know that I, for one, am very open to honest study and thought. I am sorry again, if my words seemed to communicate accusation, because that was not the intent at all.

Again, I still wonder how much evolution is leading people's thoughts. Waltke himself says, "The days of creation may also pose difficulties for a strict historical account. Contemporary scientists almost unanimously discount the possibility of creation in one week; and we cannot summarily discount the evidence of earth sciences." Do you see why I, and others, might have some honest questions?

7/24/2007 09:56:00 PM  
Blogger JT said...

Doug:

Eisegesis! Eisegesis!

"Simple" isn't a put-down; it's a description (a true one at that, right?)

Actually, one of the attractions of a-mill for me is its simplicity. Christ comes, and sin and death are put away (as the NT teaches). No need to break out the wall-sized laminated charts--you can draw it all on a napkin! :)

JT

7/24/2007 10:02:00 PM  
Blogger JT said...

Mark,

You are indeed a friend. Which is why this discussion has been a bit frustrating and disheartening. I'm sorry if I've made it worse.

I certainly agree that some who reject a 24-hr interpretation hold to macro-evolution, but at the same time, I reject the idea that any other view presupposes it. From what I understand, this is not the view held by most of the rabbininc scholars who commented on Genesis. I think that should give one pause before making hypotheses about which motives must be there in order for one to hold the 24-hr view (which I happen to think the Bible doesn't teach!)

Anyway, blessings to you and your ministry, brother.

JT

7/24/2007 10:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Martin Shields said...

By and large I agree with much that you've written, although I think there are good grounds for arguing that both ‏שיח השדה and ‏עשב השדה refer to some type of cultivated crops. The first expression appears nowhere else (so the links to Gen. 21:15; Job 30:4, 7 do not necessarily define the meaning of the expression here), but the qualification of both terms by השדה and the fact that their non-appearance is linked to the absence of anyone to cultivate them seems good grounds for this conclusion. After all, if ‏שיח השדה is "wild, uncultivated, desert vegetation that grows spontaneously after the onset of the rainy season in the fall," why does it not grow without the man to till the ground?

7/24/2007 10:38:00 PM  
Blogger Mark and Maki said...

Justin,

Thank you for your kind reply.
Again, I disagree that most rabbinic scholars disagree with a literal reading of the text. Even if that were true today, (which is a big if) that is obviously not true in the history of the church.
Hebrew scholar James Barr, of Oxford, who is not a believer and thus has no interest in this debate except from a purely literary standpoint said,

‘… probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:

1. Creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience.
2. The figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story
3. Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.’

I'm sorry to drag this on, JT, but I do think it is important for others to hear the other side.

May God bless your ministry as well.
We thank Him for you,
Mark

7/25/2007 01:15:00 AM  
Blogger Cap Stewart said...

This is definitely an interesting and thought-provoking post. Nevertheless, I think poster Ken Davis makes an excellent point and I would be interested in an answer anyone might be able to give to his question.

Also, I’m failing to follow the logic of the following statement from Justin’s post:

What then does the repeated refrain “evening and morning” in Genesis 1 mean? Many think it’s a reference to an ordinary, 24-hour day. But evening to morning isn’t 24 hours, is it? What is it? It is nighttime! It’s the same phrase used to indicate when an Israelite would take his daily rest (cf. Ps. 104:23; Gen. 30:16; Ex. 18:13). The daily rest in Israel looks forward to the weekly Sabbath rest.

I don’t mean to impart any devious motives here, but equating the phrases “morning and evening” and “morning to evening” almost seems like linguistic sleight of hand. Both are entirely different! “Morning and evening” DOES mean one full day—a literal 24-hour period. “Morning to evening” obviously doesn’t—but that isn’t the phrasing Scripture uses. The phrase “morning and evening” is indeed when an Israelite would take his day of rest, but all that proves is that the Israelites viewed a day as beginning in the evening and ending in the morning (the opposite of what we do today). The issue isn’t the length of the day, just the point of its beginning and end.

Or am I just missing something completely obvious here?

7/25/2007 06:57:00 AM  
Blogger JT said...

Thanks, Mark.

I may be wrong on this, but I would think even most of the good exegetes on the young-earth side would disagree with the idea that "The figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story."

For your consideration, I don't think there's any such things as presupposition-less exegesis. It's simply not the case that someone like Barr--or any other Hebrew scholar--would have "no interest" beyond purely literary ones. There is also the motivation of showing that the biblical accounts do not match with reality--which is a major factor in the exegesis of unbelievers. This isn't an argument for either side, but just a caution that the use of this fact as cited by Barr (which I don't think is true) can cut both ways.

Blessings,
Justin

7/25/2007 07:01:00 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; . . . Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know. ~ James Barr Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University in England

7/25/2007 07:56:00 AM  
Blogger Bryan L said...

Interesting comment Steve. But it seems if you follow it and use it to justify the literal reading you would have to do the same with their worldview in general (i.e. sky is a solid dome held up by the mountains, the earth is sitting on pillars and there is an underworld etc...) since they did believe the world was generally that way.
The 2 most convincing treatments on this issue that I've read yet are from John Walton's Genesis NIVAC commentary and Rikk Watts from Regent College has an article on the creation account as well (I think it's floating around on the internet).

Blessings,
Bryan L

7/25/2007 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

Bryan,

You have repeated a YEC strawman. YECs do not require 'literalism'. We seek original intent.

7/25/2007 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger Cap Stewart said...

Regarding my previous post (which I obviously should have proofread more carefully): I mistakenly turned the phrase around to say “morning and evening,” when in fact it should be “evening and morning.” Here I am talking about linguistic sleight of hand and I do it myself! Sorry about that.

7/25/2007 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger Kevin said...

JT,

I have 2 questions regarding the "days" arguement:

1) If, indeed, the days are not days, but periods, why is Genesis 1 written the way it is? Surely it could have been written in a way that clearly conveyed the ideas of longer periods while still allowing for the overall significance (eg. the institution of the work week, etc) to be kept intact. Obviously you are neither God (the inspiration) nor the author, so I don't expect a definitive answer, but I am curious about your reasoning as to why it is presented the way it is. I did read your explanation of "analogical/anthropomorphic" language, but wondered if this was all you based it on or if there is something else.

2) Genesis 1 is one of the most contested sections of scripture. I, personally, don't understand why so much ink has been spilled over this. I guess my question is this: what is the problem with taking the plain reading of the passage (ie. a day is just that, a 24 hour day)? Understand, I am not accusing you of anything. I am simply trying to gain an understanding of your reasoning.

You said, "One of the reasons I cannot commend the work of places like Answers in Genesis is that, in my experience, those who have been influenced by them tend to be very quick to make assumptions and accusations and think the worst about fellow believers--which I think is most unfortunate. They also tend to see this as a litmus test for theological and scriptural fidelity."

I would just like to respond that this may be true of many (and has been true of me in the past; hopefully I've grown past that). Of course, the opposite could also be said. Again, I am not accusing you of anything, but many who hold the opposing views take the stance that those who subscribe to the plain/simple reading of Genesis 1 are, themselves, simple and have not given much thought to their beliefs and have not studied much, but have come to their view by default. I, for one, have not done so. In fact, for me, it is just the opposite. I used to subscribe to the view that the "days" of Genesis must have been longer periods of time, and that is the viewpoint that I held by default. Answers in Genesis has some great scholarship and scientific research behind them, and to dismiss them out-of-hand is a bit uncharitable. They are fighting the same battle that many of us are fighting; defending God's Word from the attacks of the world. Again, I don't question your "theological or scriptural fidelity", I have been reading your blog for a while and know that the defense of God's Word is one of your goals, as well. I simply wanted to point out that the issue you brought up is in no way one-sided.

I look forward to your response.

With respect,

Kevin

7/25/2007 10:24:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Taylor,

Thank you for the post, and the link to Futato's article- both are very thought-provoking and helpful!

I am fascinated by the fact that our naturalistic age is not the first to struggle with the chronology of Genesis 1&2; our age can tend to object on the grounds of our naturalistic cosmology, whereas Augustine's age tended to object on the grounds of it's own cosmology. Interestingly, large swaths of the Bible (Judges and Mark come to mind) are either not organized along chronological lines or are only vaguely chronological, making use of other organizing priciples. Only our current age seems to have a real problem with that.

What does this mean? Simply that our objections can be relative to our backgrounds, but you are focusing on exactly the right issue: exegesis. The accusations relating to your motive are distressing. It is not necessary to fear an incursion of naturalism in this discussion.

I do have a question for you, Mr. Taylor. Futato's case is persuading me, and so I would love to hear from you what weaknesses you find in his framework theory. You mention that you do not find it persuasive- why is that? I am eager to learn.

Ryan

7/25/2007 10:57:00 AM  
Blogger Bryan L said...

Steve,

You said, "You have repeated a YEC strawman. YECs do not require 'literalism'. We seek original intent."

The point is if you are arguing for what the authors intended and what they believed then they also had certain beliefs about the world as well and when they wrote about those things they intended them to mean what they said. The really believed the world was they way they saw it.

I don't know where the straw man accusation came from, but even if I were to say YEC's seek literalism I don't think that would be a straw man at all since there are plenty of YEC that do adhere to literalism (probably mostly those who don't follow this debate closely but just interpret Genesis in a YEC way). They don't necessarily have to but there are plenty that do.

Blessings,
Bryan L

7/25/2007 11:17:00 AM  
Blogger CalvDispy said...

JT,
You are the first to treat others with utmost charity. However, I agree that your comments about AIG are uncharitable.

Bryan L,
People sling the word "literalism" around as a pejorative. Define what you mean by literalism and perhaps give an example of its use.

Ken Davis,
The "let there be" and "it was so" phrases is something I have always understood to be a clear evidence of creation ex nihilo via divine fiat. By this I mean that God simply spoke and the power of His word immediately brought forth what he intended from non-existence. This seems to be the clear teaching of passages like Psa. 33:6 - "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made"; Rom. 4:17 - "God... calls into being that which does not exist"; Heb. 11:3 - "By faith we understand the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." Heb. 1:3 says Christ "upholds all things by the word of His power." When I think of the work of creation and its being continually sustained by divine fiat I think of Jesus speaking to the wind and the waves and their immediate ceasing. I think of Him making bread and fish out of nothing. I think of Him making the best wine out of ordinary water. What vintage was that wine anyway? Should we bring in the scientists to investigate? (Just kidding!).

7/25/2007 12:20:00 PM  
Blogger Steve said...

brian,

They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000 years have yet passed. City of God 12.10

Whoever takes another meaning out of Scripture than the writer intended, goes astray, but not through any falsehood in Scripture. On Christian Doctrine 1.41

7/25/2007 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger Bryan L said...

Steve, I'm not sure what you intend by the quotes but ok.

Calvdispy, honestly I didn't introduce the word literalism, I said literal, by that meaning those who interpret it as creation in 6 actual 24 days. It wasn't pejorative in anyway, but just a neutral word. Steve interpreted what I said as a charge of literalism against YEC'ers. As far as a definition for literalism, I guess I would personally define it as those who do their best to avoid anything but a literal interpretation (not counting obvious metaphors or allegories). This shows up in a number of ways, such as the interpretation of prophecy and apocalyptic literature as completely literal, seeing parables as actual history and seeing every narrative in the Bible as actual history. That would be what I would define it as. I don't think all YEC'ers are literalist but all literalists are probably YEC'ers. Hope that helps.

Blessings,
Bryan L

7/25/2007 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger CalvDispy said...

Bryan L.
I think your definition of literal is overly-simplistic and does not represent what I think any responsible exegete would accept. My point in asking for a definition is simply that the term "literal" in hermenuetics is a notoriously slippery term.

Nonetheless, can you give me an example of a narrative in the Bible that is not actual history (excepting Genesis 1:1-2:3)? Thanks!

7/25/2007 04:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Josh S said...

CalvDispy: I've had the same experience with AIG/YECers (and I've also been one of them!), and I would unfortunately agree with JT. I don't think JT was being uncharitable, but rather just telling his experience.

7/25/2007 04:22:00 PM  
Blogger Jake & Melissa said...

I can't vouch for AIG, but I'm not sure it's fair to be throwing out comments about how mean young-earth guys are. There are a lot of us who hold a 6-24-hr-day view of creation, and a compressed view of earth's history, because we believe it is the best interpretation of the biblical (and scientific!) evidence. We have lots of good exegetical arguments, just like many of the brothers who take a different view. We're not all angry about it, and it's not very kind to dismiss our concerns by talking about what a drag we are.

It's kind of like when people say, "Well, Calvinists are just mean."

7/25/2007 08:58:00 PM  
Blogger Bryan L said...

CCalvDispy,

I think you have mistakenly believed that I was interested in discussing and debating the term "literalism". I didn't introduce it into the discussion and I'm not interested in defending it. All I referred to was the literal interpretation of Gen 1-2. That's common speak for 24 hours 6 days, nothing else. It's not meant to be a pejorative or positive terms.

Regarding my definition being "overly-simplistic", it was meant to be. You didn't ask for a dictionary article (and I wouldn't have given one if you did). I'm appealing to the common usage of the word to refer to biblical interpretation practiced by those not generally interested in biblical criticism or interpretive and hermeneutical methods. If you want to define it differently, be my guest.

As for what might not be actual history, I know I'm probably stepping into a hornets nest here and I'm honestly not interested in debating this either, but just because you asked, maybe Esther, Job, Jonah, Daniel, Song of Songs, as well as some of the numbers used in the Bible that seem excessive or exaggerated. Anyway that's just my opinion. Thanks.

Blessings,
Bryan L

7/25/2007 10:29:00 PM  
Blogger gods.geek said...

This post has been removed by the author.

7/25/2007 10:29:00 PM  
Blogger CalvDispy said...

Bryan L,
Do you believe Adam and Eve were historic persons?

7/26/2007 10:16:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does anyone believe that we are in the seventh day? Genesis does NOT say "And there was evening and there was morning, the seventh day."

Hebrews 4 speak that this "day" is the seventh day, the day that God has provided rest. And we are to enter that rest.

7/26/2007 11:21:00 AM  
Blogger Bryan L said...

Calvdispy,
Yes I do. But at the same time my faith wouldn't be shaken if they were representative instead, or if the story was more theological and literary than historical.
Blessings,
Bryan L

7/26/2007 12:03:00 PM  
Blogger CalvDispy said...

Bryan L,
Consider 1 Cor. 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive." Here we have two parallel statements about Adam and Christ. It is hard to imagine that they are treated here as other then real personages whether fictional or non-fictional. To be faithful to the parallelism, if they are fictional, it seems both must be fictional. Likewise, if they are non-fictional, both must be non-fictional. Since your faith would not be shaken if Adam was merely a representative literary creation, would it not be shaken if Christ were a literary creation, say of the early church?

7/26/2007 02:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Billy Bob said...

To be faithful to the parallelism, if they are fictional, it seems both must be fictional.

It may seem that way to you, but it's certainly not true. Even if Paul thought Adam was a real person, that doesn't mean it makes Christ fictional! Or if it does, we're all in trouble.

7/26/2007 03:52:00 PM  
Blogger CalvDispy said...

Billy Bob,
I think you have missed my point. Byran L has suggested that many narratives in the Bible may not be historical which means many people may not be historical. Paul writes as if Adam is a historical person. But if in fact Adam is a literary creation (i.e. fictional), then what is there to stop us from saying Jesus was a literary creation? Luke himself claims to be a careful historian (Luke 1:1-4) and yet he mentions Adam as a historical link in the genealogy of Jesus (Luke 3:38). If Adam is not a historical person then Luke must be dismissed as fabricators of myths and I suggest that Paul would fall under the same assessment.

Furthermore, if Adam is not a real person we have serious theological problems related to our docrine of Original Sin and Imputation. This is why I believe Genesis 1-2 must be understood a historical narrative just as the rest of Genesis 1-11 of which the pattern of Genesis 1-2 fits. Consider for example the use of the Hebrew term toledot in Gen. 2:4 ("account/ generations")used throughout Genesis 1-11 as historical markers (see 5:1; 6:9; 10:1; 11:10, 27). This simply means I read Genesis 1-2 as straightforward history and not poetic literature.

7/26/2007 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger Bryan L said...

Calvdispy,
I said I thought they were actual people. What else do you want me to say?
At the same time if they turn out not to be, but instead representative of all humanity, or if it happened, but just not in that exact historical way, it doesn't threaten my faith. Do you think Paul's faith would have been threatened? I don't know. I don't think so but who knows.

If Adam wasn't real does it make it any less true that all humanity is dead apart from Christ? Does it make it any less true that all humanity has sinned and is in bondage to sin apart from Christ? Does it make it any less true that in Christ all shall be made alive?

I'm sorry but I just don't buy into this all or nothing way of reading the Bible and doing theology. It's stuff like that that causes peoples’ faith to crumble when they can no longer deny what they see as obvious in the text (like Ehrman).

"Furthermore, if Adam is not a real person we have serious theological problems related to our doctrine of Original Sin and Imputation."

To hold continue holding on to a doctrine is no reason to go on believing something that might not be true. If it threatens your doctrine of original sin then maybe you should rethink your doctrine of original sin. As far as imputation, I'm not really big on the doctrine anyway but I don't see what the story of Adam and Eve not being totally historically true has to do with that. If Christ's righteousness is imputed to you then it is whether Adam is real or not.

When you try and build a theological house on something as small as whether the story of Adam and Eve is completely historically accurate then you’re building your house on a weak foundation that is bound to fall once the storms come.

Blessings,
Bryan L

7/26/2007 07:44:00 PM  
Blogger CalvDispy said...

Bryan L,
I do not doubt the sincerity or integrity of your faith, but I must say if you think the historicity of Biblical narratives can be questioned and that what is clearly regarded as important historic persons (i.e. Adam) may be regarded as fictional without hurting the integrity of the Christian faith, it is your foundation that is bound to fall. This sort of thinking (i.e. initially questioning historical narratives)is what led higher criticism to dismiss the historicity of the gospel accounts and of the whole life of Christ, particualrly his resurrection. I don't need to elaborate upon the point that if Christ was not actually risen from the dead then our faith itself is dead. Be careful about what you dismiss as possibly unhistorical.

7/26/2007 11:20:00 PM  
Blogger CalvDispy said...

Bryan L,
Let me make one suggestion to you. Get a copy of John Murray's "The Imputation of Adam's Sin." I am quite certain Justin would recommend it. It is a careful piece of Reformed exegetical theology of the highest caliber. I think it will challenge you in good way to think about imputation and the importance of the historicity of Adam.

7/26/2007 11:28:00 PM  
Blogger Bryan L said...

Calvdispy,

Sorry but the slippery slope argument doesn’t work. It's not, first accept that the story of Adam and Eve may not be completely historical, then suddenly Jesus didn't exist. They're two very different cases and you are trying to flatten the Bible and lump it all in together.

You're asking me to put a story that has no witnesses and seems very literary in ways, on the same ground (and historical importance) as the story of a man who was witnessed by many people who wrote about it and who's followers started what today is the largest religion in the world and who's power I've personally witnessed and experienced.

Obviously Adam didn't play a big role in the theology of the Biblical writers or else he would have showed up more (look how often he's mentioned in the OT). In fact you can say he's just helping to set up the stage for Abraham. There's a reason that thousands of years of history goes by in a few chapters in Genesis, because the real importance is what God is going to do about this problem we find with humans and sin, thus enter the story of Abraham and Israel. And then enter the story of Jesus. Whether Adam was a true historical character or not doesn't stop the fact that we all sin and apart from Christ we will all die, but through him we can all live.

Thanks for the discussion.

Blessings,
Bryan L

7/27/2007 07:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Josh S. said...

CalvDispy: It's the kind of statements like "your foundation ... is bound to fall" that make people frustrated with young earth creationists. Why must it fall? Has it fallen for J. I. Packer? Will his "enviably" fall? Face it, it's just not true, even if you want it to be. There is a world of difference between believing Adam was fictional and Jesus or Paul was fictional.

Though unfortunately it does happen. Do you know why? Because they were schooled in young earth creationism. Some poor college kid takes a basic science class, realizes evolution is true, and we've put him in a place where he now has to reject Christianity. Then of course his foundations are "bound to fall!" We've set it up that way -- even made it part of our basic gospel message. And we wonder why our college kids have such high rates of apostasy! Duh!

But this doesn't happen if he has a proper understanding that Christianity and science can co-exist.

YEC is not part or prerequisite for the gospel. Christians have believed the earth was flat, and they've believe the earth was round. They've believed in geocentrism and heliocentrism. Now there are creationists and evolutionists. All these beliefs can be (and have been) held by Christians -- even if they are untrue and do not square completely with the Bible.

7/27/2007 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger CalvDispy said...

Bryan L,
I do not believe you are on a slippery slope. However, I do believe that the Bible is not a deceptive book when it speaks of people and events as historical. Answer why the careful historian Luke includes Adam in his genealogy if it is possible for us to say Adam was not real? Paul's argument for imputation is carefully based on the existence of Adam and our sin being connected to his existence (Rom. 5). I would not say that was a minor part of his theology of sin and justification. It is a major part of it.

Josh S,
You are putting words in my mouth. I did not imply that YEC is a prerequisite for the gospel. You do not have to be a YEC to accept the historicity of Adam. What I am saying is the Christian faith is founding upon historic realities. If one has trouble accepting the historicity of some parts of the Bible then upon what basis are we prevented rejecting others? In other words, by what criteria do we accept some things as historical and others as not?

This delves into the question of inspiration and inerrancy. This is why I affirm the Chicago Statement of Inerrancy which says in part:
"We affirm that inspiration, though not conferring omnisicience, guaranteed true and trustworthy utterance on all matters of which the biblical authors were moved to speak and write" (Art. 9).
"We affirm that Scripture, having been given by divine inspiration, is infallible, so that, far from misleading us, it is true and reliable in all the matters it addresses" (Art. 11).
"We affirm that Scripture in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit. We deny that biblical infallibilty and inerrancy are limited to spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes, exclusive of assertions in the fields of history and science. We further deny that scientific hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood." (Art. 12).
"We... deny that inerrancy is negated by biblical phenomena such as a lack of modern technical precision, irregularities of grammar or spelling, observational descriptions of nature, the reporting of falsehoods, the use of hyperbole and round numbers, the topical arrangement of material, variant selections of material in parallel accounts, or the use of free citations" (Art. 13).
"We deny the legitimacy of any treatment of the text or quest for sources lying behind it that leads to relativizing, dehistoricizing, or discounting its teaching, or rejecting its claims to authorship" (Art. 18).

7/27/2007 10:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Josh S. said...

If one has trouble accepting the historicity of some parts of the Bible then upon what basis are we prevented rejecting others?

We are prevented because the Bible isn't a book that one author wrote at one time. It's a book that spans many centuries, many authors, many genres and many cultures. For instance, Job may not have "historically" happened. Even if it is historical, it's still a rendering of the story by an author (or many authors). The poetry probably isn't what Job's friends said word for word — how could it be?

But just because Job may not be literal history, doesn't mean the Epistle to the Romans isn't historical! It's like saying everything in the Bible must be written by David, because the Psalms are (mostly) written by David. Or that everything must be love poetry, because Song of Solomon is love poetry. There are many genres in the Bible, and just because one is different doesn't mean we have to reject all the others.

So sometimes we forget that the Bible is a compilation of many books by many authors in different genres at different times. When we remember that, then it's easy to see why we are prevented from "rejecting" others as non-historical just because one part is not.

(By the way, I don't think this issue affects inspiration at all. Possibly inerrancy, though, depending on how it is defined — that is, more fundamentalist definitions of inerrancy would not be favorable towards this view, but that is hardly surprising.)

7/27/2007 11:29:00 AM  
Blogger Bryan L said...

Calvdispy,

You said,
"I do not believe you are on a slippery slope."

Thanks

"However, I do believe that the Bible is not a deceptive book when it speaks of people and events as historical."

I never said it was deceptive. It's not deceptive if they really believe Adam and Eve exist. Notice I have not said they don't or that the account of them is not historical, I've only said it wouldn't matter to me if it wasn't. If you found out they didn't exist would your faith be shaken??

"Answer why the careful historian Luke includes Adam in his genealogy if it is possible for us to say Adam was not real?"

As careful as any historian is they're going to have a hard time proving something as happening in history when there were no other witnesses to that event, only handed down traditions over thousands of years before writing existed. And Adam serves a theological point in the genealogy anyway. Matthew doesn't include Adam, but stops at Abraham. Why? Why then does Luke go back to Adam? What is he trying to say about the gentiles and the new covenant? He wasn't trying to make a historical point but a theological one.

"Paul's argument for imputation is carefully based on the existence of Adam and our sin being connected to his existence (Rom. 5). I would not say that was a minor part of his theology of sin and justification. It is a major part of it."

Again if Adam and Eve did not exist does that somehow make sin non-existent? Does that somehow mean some people don't actually sin? Does that mean that we all don't have knowledge of good and evil and that one day we won't die? All of those are still true whether or not Adam and Eve existed. And if that is so then what Christ has accomplished is equally true.

Thanks for the discussion but I'm moving on now.

Blessings,
Bryan L

7/27/2007 02:34:00 PM  
Blogger CalvDispy said...

This will be my last comments and then I will move on as well.

Josh S,
Somewhere you are missing me. I never said the whole Bible was historical narrative. It contains numerous genres that have been identified by careful observation over many years of scholarly study. What I am saying is when the Bible does contain historical narrative, if we believe in inspiration and inerrancy then it is absolutley faithful to the truth of that history though seen through the lens of theological concerns.

This is not a fundamentalist view of the matter. The Chicago Statement I cited was written by mainstream evangelicals in the late 70's who were concerned with the drift that was taking place in evangelicalism. Fundamentalists to my knowledge have never been able to gather such a careful group of scholars to craft such an important document. It would serve all Christians well to study it carefully. I recommend R. C. Sproul's book, "Scripture Alone" for a good treatment of the document.

Bryan L,
"If you found out they [Adam and Eve] didn't exist would your faith be shaken??"

This is a curious question and probably reveals were you and I differ in a significant way. It is the wrong sort of question to ask because I do not believe it is possible to disprove the existence of Adam and Eve given my view of truth, revelation, inspiration and the inerrancy of Scripture. It is obvious that Adam and Eve could not be verified by anything like the sorts of historical investigations that we conduct today even on ancient matters, though perhaps it is not impossible that such evidence might be found, though highly unlikely. But I do not accept the veracity of the Bible's claims because archeology and historical research give evidence of it. How for example could we find evidence of Jesus' miracles beyond the acceptance of eye-witnesses? They are certainly not scientifically verifiable, which raises important issues about the value of modern science to determine such kinds of truth claims.

I accept the historicity of Adam and Eve because I believe the Bible makes it clear that they are indeed historical. I need no other verification. This is the only reasonable conclusion one can draw if he believes in inspiration and inerrancy. The authority I appeal to is that of God Himself, not the skepticism of modern critics of the Bible.

We could know nothing of the history and theology of Scripture unless God revealed it to us after having first revealed Himslef in history itself. It was His purpose to secure the revelation of Himself in history by calling men whom He inspired to record the revelation he intended. If one accepts the truth of the Bible, this is plainly the way one must see the matter IMHO. Thus, I accept the historicity of Adam and Eve upon what I believe is the clear testimony of scripture to their historicity and I accept that because I believe the Bible to be the inspired and inerrant Word of the Living God who has made Himslef known to mankind and secured that knowledge for us in the Scripture. I believe this is standard orthodox evangelical stuff.

Thanks for your time, this discussion has challenged me and helped me to think about the issues. No malice has been intended.

Blessings,
Scott C.

7/27/2007 05:02:00 PM  

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