Piper, Politics, and Abortion: A Few Thoughts
99 comments | PermalinkIn the video Piper mentioned that he thinks it would be unbiblical for Sarah Palin to become Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. However, he didn't explain the biblical rationale for his position. So on Sunday DG posted a new entry by Piper: Why a Woman Shouldn't Run for Vice President, but Wise People May Still Vote for Her. I encourage you to read it. (More below on an important clarification in this new piece.)
This morning Piper posted A Prayer for This Election--which I would also encourage you to read (and pray!).
In the following, I'm going to express some reluctant qualms about what Piper said in the initial video. Everything I say, however, should be understood beneath the banner of my enormous appreciation for Piper in countless ways. One of the things I learned during my time in Minneapolis with him is that he invites criticism and believes in the serious (and at times spirited!) exchange of arguments in the marketplace of ideas. I hope everyone will understand the spirit, then, with which I write these thoughts.
I also think that folks should keep in mind the medium. Blogs and videos are great--but one of their virtues (conciseness) can also be one of their drawbacks, as you can't say everything. Piper was not giving a comprehensive theology of voting and political engagement--so that should be kept in mind when viewing the video and when reading my comments.
Piper on the "Unusual Challenges" and "Complicating Factors" of This Election
In the video Piper prefaced the discussion by framing it as an election that presents us with "unusual challenges," and then he cited three "complicating factors":
- Sarah Palin is a woman, and biblically, a woman should not be the Commander in Chief.
- Barack Obama is black, and it would be "thrilling" and "amazing"--"a golden opportunity"--to have a black President.
- Abortion is evil, and Barack Obama is the most extreme abortion-rights proponent in Congress. ("Abortion is an evil the scope of which and depths of which very few people in our culture feel. The magnitude of it’s just horrific. . . . 12 million black babies dead since 1973. I don’t think Barack Obama will touch that with a ten foot pole. And he should. . . . He’s the most radical abortion proponent in the United States Congress, and that’s tragic.")
A Complicating Factor, or an Absolute Deal Breaker?
The first part left many--including me--confused and disappointed. We found it hard to square putting abortion into the category of a complicating factor--alongside race and gender--when previously Piper has powerfully and prophetically placed it into the category of an absolute deal breaker. In this video Piper offered no pastoral guidance as to how to prioritize these complicating factors--and it left many confused (with more than one person wondering, incorrectly, if he was encouraging a vote for Obama).
One-Issue Politics
Many of us have been influenced by Piper's 1995 article, One-Issue Politics, One-Issue Marriage, and the Humane Society. In it he explains that "No endorsement of any single issue qualifies a person to hold public office. . . . [But] Everybody knows a single issue that for them would disqualify a candidate for office" (my emphasis).
Here's the thesis: "I believe that the endorsement of the right to kill unborn children disqualifies a person from any position of public office." Piper ends by saying that his conviction is "never to vote for a person who endorses such an evil—even if he could balance the budget tomorrow and end all taxation."
In the blog post on Sunday, Piper not only explains his biblical case against a woman as president, but also makes clear that the issues of womanhood and abortion are on different levels :
. . . a person with my view may very well vote for a woman to be President if the man running against her holds views and espouses policies that may, as far as we can see, do more harm to more people than we think would be done by electing a woman President and thus exalting a flawed pattern of womanhood. In my view, defending abortion is far worse sin for a man than serving as Vice President is for a woman.While I still wish that Piper had reiterated his point about abortion-rights as a disqualifier for office, I am thankful that he made the above point, which clarifies that he does not see the abortion issue as morally equivalent to issues related to race and gender.
God's Sovereignty . . . and Means
Piper, in the video, argues that we need a "big healthy dose" of the sovereignty of God with regard to this election.
Piper has influenced me greatly in this area; largely through his careful biblical-theological work, I am a passionate proponent of God's absolute sovereignty over all things. And surely politics is included in "all things." God removes kings; God sets up kings (Dan. 2:21). God does all that he pleases (Ps. 115:3), and he "works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Eph. 1:11). Even though a king (or a president) appears to be the most powerful person in the land, "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will" (Prov. 21:1). Amen and amen.
Theologically, we need to make at least two distinctions. One is between God's secret will (everything that will come to pass) and God's revealed will (what he tells us to do in his Word). The second important point is that God not only ordains ends but also commands and ordains means.
Where am I going with this?
(1) The fact that God ordains all things (i.e., his secret will) has a limited effect on our decision making. It can't prescribe how we act, but it can prevent us from having the wrong perspective (e.g., anxiety, fear, despair, misplaced trust, etc.). But in terms of interpreting events, the main way to read providence is backwards (as John Flavel wrote: "Some providences, like Hebrew letters, must be read backward").
(2) The fact that God ordains means ensures that our actions have significance. The ordained outcome can never be seen as an excuse for complacency or fatalism.
Now I don't think that Piper would disagree with the above theologically. But there may be a difference between us regarding how this works out practically with respect to politics.
For example, he says that the "prophetic perspective" speaks in this way: "I will always be pursuing his [God's] kingdom first, and let the political chips fall where they will" (my emphasis). But to my ears, a comment like this does not sound like a robust theology of means. It could be taken to sound a bit fatalistic.
Piper also says, God is "gonna get elected the one he wants elected, and if it's the person we think is hurtful, then we need to be hurt!" I agree that whoever is elected as president (and to all other political positions) on Tuesday is the person that God ordained to be in that position--and that that person might be a partial manifestation of God's already/not-yet judgment against us.
But again I fear that the phrasing of this could sound like fatalism. A few years ago I asked Piper about praying for persecution, and he responded, "I can’t help but think that a good heart would long for anyone who is being hurt not to be hurt anymore. In fact, I think our churches should labor to relieve suffering in the world, especially eternal suffering" (Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, p. 224). I think this is the right perspective to have. But I didn't hear that in this video.
To be fair, Piper does say that we should vote and be engaged (though in a way that is not all-consuming). But there is really no guidance or encouragement for political persuasion and engagement. Without pastors building a positive vision of what this could look like--only telling us the dangers and the attitudes we should avoid--should we be surprised that there are few Wilberforce-like figures today, engaging in risk-taking sacrifice for the cause of justice?
Agreement
Now with all of that said, you may be surprised to hear me say that I really do resonate with Piper's underlying point. Politics can easily become a source of idolatry. We are dual citizens with a higher allegiance to the City of God. If our candidate loses, we should not grieve as the world grieves. And yes, there will be something enormously significant, historic, and amazing if we elect our first black president.
But . . .
But I want to plead with fellow evangelicals to recognize that this is a watershed election with regard to abortion. Barack Obama has promised to make signing the Freedom of Choice Act his first order of business in the White House--and with a Democratic Congress, he will be able to make this happen.
The Knights of Columbus recently catalogued the many small successes achieved in the pro-life political process since 1973:
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The Hyde Amendment, which restricts federal funding for abortions;
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The federal law banning partial birth abortions, which was finally upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in April 2007;
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The “Mexico City Policy,” which has barred the use of federal taxpayers’ money to pay for abortions in other countries;
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Laws in 44 states that preserve a parental role when children under 18 seek abortions;
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Laws in 40 states that restrict late-term abortions;
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Laws in 46 states that protect the right of conscience for individual health care providers;
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Laws in 27 states that protect the right of conscience for institutions;
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Laws in 38 states that ban partial birth abortions;
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Laws in 33 states that require counseling before having an abortion;
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And laws in 16 states that provide for ultrasounds before an abortion.
I am under no illusions that electing John McCain will necessarily lead to the overturning of Roe v. Wade. But I do believe that McCain would be a good pro-life president, I know that McCain would veto the radical FOCA, and I know that Obama is the most extreme pro-abortion candidate to ever run for president.
I believe evangelicals should care deeply--though not idolatrously--about this election, and that they should do what they can to stop, or at least slow, the slaughter of the innocent. Voting is one of the things you can do. I encourage you to do it, and to do so with a view toward the weakest and most defenseless members of the human race--3,700 of whom are being killed every single day in the United States.



99 Comments:
Really, really excellent, Justin. Passion, reason, truth, substance.
Thanks.
What I took from Piper's video (especially the part about "complicating factors") was that there will be a tragic component to this election no matter who wins. I took him to be saying that there are many who would be thrilled to vote for the first African-American candidate for President, but can't because of his extreme pro-abortion stance. I voted for McCain and I'm praying and hoping he wins because I'm a single-issue pro-life voter, but I won't be gleeful if it happens. I have far too many African-American neighbors and brothers and sisters in Christ who see in Obama the possibility of something happening that they would never have dreamed possible in their lifetimes. If Obama wins, I'll rejoice with them even as I mourn the tragic irony that he's blind to the great evil and injustice of abortion. If he is our next president, God's people should be on their knees praying that he has a change of heart on this issue.
Justin,
"Amen" to that wonderful analysis. Knowing your relationship to John, I admit to a slight qualm about how you would handle it. You 'done good', brother. Thanks.
"Lord, with love in our hearts for Barack Obama, we pray you spare us from his becoming President. Even in these final hours, may you lead your people to see the importance of this contest, and have the courage to tell others."
Thanks for expanding and clarifying Pastor Piper's comments. I'm sure he would agree with your additional opinions. I'm grateful for the spirit in which you all dialogue. I, amen, the last bloggers prayer and may I add, "May the Lord grant us peace and an open door for sharing His truth and most importantly, the gospel".
The most compelling case I've seen anywhere, Justin. Thank you.
Hey Justin, I really appreciate your research, insight, and questions that you have done through this whole process. For some of us too busy to keep such a close watch, it has been a service to us. Thanks brother. I have a question that I haven't heard anyone (Christians) really addressing. How will Christians, who support/ed McCain, respond if/when Obama is elected President? Our brothers and sister have to consider this spiritually. Pastorally, what type advice should be giving to our brothers and sisters in Christ in the event of that happening. I have heard so many comments from my brothers close to be like, "this scares me," or ,"its a scary thought." With the fear of sounding fatalistic, Jesus told us repeatedly not to fear because He is still Lord. Either that is true or it is not regardless of who is in office. With that being the case, I know we are still called to fight for justice for the defenseless. But, in all things Jesus is Lord. People need to brace themselves sprituality for something they may not want, not lose hope and begin to think of ways to bear witness in that enviroment.
Excellent.
Thank you.
Excellent post, Justin. Perhaps wrongly, I never felt the problem you felt with Piper's words in the first video. I understood what he was saying, which was not that abortion and a woman in office are on par. (Perhaps that's because I was sifting his comments through my prior knowledge of his positions.) I simply understood him to be saying that these are all problematic issues that should concern us in varying degrees.
On another note, since there are few (if any) Wilberforces in our day, why don't you and Matt Perman begin political careers? Perman would make a good advisor on economic matters (and other things), and I'm certain you could hold your own after some research and experience. You've left a lasting mark on the world with your work on the ESV Study Bible; now that the Bible is finished you could turn your gifts to driving out abortion. Don't think I jest.
That's a good word, brother. Thanks.
Tim: Yes indeed. That's a question that needs addressing, and I hope to give a bit of thought to it on Wednesday and following.
Kent: thanks for the encouragement. My brother, Jeremy, is trying to do just that. If anyone wants to make a last-minute donation (!), visit:
http://www.taylorforiowahouse.com/
JT
Awesome words Justin. Thank you.
Justin,
As so often happens, you have hit the nail right on the head. Thank you! I have spent weeks encouraging people to vote for McCain because this is an important election and McCain is likely to be a far better President than Obama. However, it seems in recent days I have spent more time encouraging brothers and sisters not be be anxious, afraid, and angry if Obama is elected.
May the joy of the Lord be our strength today and on Wednesday morning!
Dan Erickson
"The relation of divine sovereignty to human responsibility is one of the great mysteries of the Christian faith. . . . [I]n Calvinism there is at least an equal emphasis upon human responsibility."
-John Frame, Apologetics to the Glory of God, p. 14
I grow weary of the excitement about electing a black man for president. In fact, I think this is a red herring. I would not care if he were green or purple or whatever color you would like, the fact of the matter his character, evidenced by his stance on the abortion issue, income redistribution, associations with known terrorists, etc., is what should decide whether or not one votes for him. It is not a red-letter day for this country if a man like this is elected president, it is a shame. MLK said he hoped for a day when a man is judged by the content of his character and not the color of his skin and I for one am sorry to see a man like Obama be this close to becoming president.
This has been a good discussion among good people who disagree sharply—with a good full-circle outcome represented in John Piper's response and your summary here. The blogosphere at its best.
It does seem that many of us lost sight of the fact that God does not exist on one side of the political spectrum. The calling of Republican leaders to accountability for failed policies and prideful politicking was virtually non-existent throughout the Christian blogosphere and (most importantly) from prominent Christian leaders. I believe this reflects the fact that politics became an idol and many Christians forgot to look to the board in the eye of their own party before removing the speck from the other side. This was a failing of God's calling to seek the welfare of the "city" to which God has sent us. Yes, we should stand up for the innocent lives lost to abortions. But, we should never fail to confront the corruption of those who happen to fall on the right side of the abortion issue. Single-issue voting may be sometimes valid. But, single-issue political engagement never is. If Obama is elected, it will not be the end of the abortion issue, even if there will be tragic results in the short term (although it's no guarantee). But, if the pro-life politicians have no public credibility, then the abortion issue will be lost in a more deep and lasting way.
JT: (2) The fact that God ordains means ensures that our actions have significance. The ordained outcome can never be seen as an excuse for complacency or fatalism.
One of the more important things said on this post. I can't tell you how many people, I've heard who have justified their vote for third party or not voting, that say, "Yes, but God is sovereign." Well, yes, He is, He justifies the ends and the means. The Lord justifies us through faith. We never say (although we act that way) I don't need to exercise faith, God is sovereign. Or I don't need to hate my sin, because God is sovereign.
The Lord used Pharaoh as an instrument of his wrath. He will not be able to say on judgment, yes, but God you are sovereign.
The Lord in the days of Pharaoh and the Caesars and the monarchies after that exercised His will through these dictatorships. Some for blessing, some for vessels of destruction and cursing and judgment.
We live in an age and a society where the electorate can do some good within government, this is a responsibility that did not exist during Paul's time.
Now, I've been praying that the Lord would remember mercy and not give us who we deserve, a pro-abortionist and a pro-infanticide like Sen. Obama. I don't know what He has decreed and we won't know until election day. But I'd rather be on the right side of His preceptive will which we learn from the OT, do good in the city in which you are an exile. That is Christians today. The City of Man is our exile city. Our true citizenship is in Heaven, but right this second I'm in an exile city.
If God chooses to unleash His wrath even more than He is right now and give us Senator Obama (my prayer and hope is that He will not), I'd rather be on the right side of that preceptive will than on the wrong side which is voting third party or not voting at all - which has the effect of electing Obama.
I would encourage Christian voters not to have their vote used as a vessel of wrath (if He so chooses to do that) and therefore be responsible for unleashing of more wrath. Let it be the vote of the ungodly if the Lord is to unleash even more wrath on our society.
The more I analyze and think about this election, the more I think this is a "Lord, is there any other way? Nevertheless, your will be done" situation. I'm learning how to pray that.
I voted for McCain. But I think Obama will win (at least that's what a friend who works for the GOP has told me is most certain). No doubt America could experience 1 Samuel 8 after the 4th.
thank you for your thoughts! I have to admit, I am very discouraged today, and am struggling with trusting God with the presidential election. I think we must remember that God is in control, and trust Him. We must encourage each other with this truth and at the same time, get involved!! Go campaign for conservatives running in local elections, talk to people, volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center. I agree that we can't just be fatalistic about this, but we do need to trust God.
Thank you JT for detailing this out for us.
My concern is that (and I really do hate to ascribe motives to behavior or words, but...) Piper seems to have eroded much of his credibility on topics of womanhood. I love and respect the depth, compassion and truth that he presents on so many theological issues, both in practice and belief. However, he his taint -against- women has clouded his judgement and counsel a number of times in the past couple of years.
-- Lou
"Theologically, we need to make at least two distinctions. One is between God's secret will (everything that will come to pass) and God's revealed will (what he tells us to do in his Word). The second important point is that God not only ordains ends but also commands and ordains means."
Wonderfully put.
"I also think that folks should keep in mind the medium. Blogs and videos are great--but one of their virtues (conciseness) can also be one of their drawbacks, as you can't say everything. Piper was not giving a comprehensive theology of voting and political engagement--so that should be kept in mind when viewing the video and when reading my comments."
May we all learn to take this principle to heart.
I also believe God has given each of us a particular bent, according to the measure of grace we have. And it seems to me John Piper isn't bent toward, nor fired up about politics as much as he is fired up about the Gospel, and about God's glory.
So where he lacks, others may fill the lack thereof.
Perhaps this is one way the Lord sovereignly brings us into the "unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
to be the devil's advocate here, justin, what it seems you're saying is that we should stop going to the bible looking for black and white answers.
because 'absolute truth' has nothing to do with black and white.
the bible can be used to favor the debate in one direction or another - always has, always will - and i dare say your piece here does the same.
it's time that we Christians move out of our how-do-i-accomplish-my-agenda mindset of biblical handling and onto using the mind of Christ we've been given - one that isn't contained completely in a book, but one that can most certainly be aided by it.
collectively, then, people can - using their minds, that book, and even other information - reach consensus on what shade of gray to implement.
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Thanks for this post. I hope it cleared up some things for a lot of people.
I never for a second interpreted that video as if Piper were endorsing Obama--not even for a second. If you have even the smallest amount of experience with Piper, it seems to me that you would give him the benefit of the doubt.
Piper didn't say anything in praise of Obama himself, but rather that the prospect of electing a black president is exciting! And it should be shouldn't it? Can't we be excited that a black man is running for president and at the same time decline to vote for him because of his stance on a deal-breaking issue like abortion?
I hope that one day, a thoughtful, consistently pro-life black man is elected president of the United States--but it seems people are so on-edge about this election that we can't even say that without having people jump down our throats saying that we are supporting Obama. That to me is sad.
I also have enough experience reading and listening to Piper to give him the benefit of the doubt not to think that he was telling evangelicals to be fatalists--he did after all encourage evangelicals to vote in the video!
The fact that so many jumped on this video wondering if Piper was endorsing Obama (which obviously he wasn't)is more evidence that we, as conservative evangelicals, desperately need to hear his challenge not to put our hope in the political system but in the Lord, Jesus Christ!
Justin,
Well setup and executed. Clear, direct, simple, and fair. Although, based on who Piper is and has been, especially to those who know him (like You), can't one take what he says and hear what he means? Sure his language was a bit vague in some aspects, inconclusive in others, and maybe even carrying the appearance of contradictory in others. But knowing Piper's heart, one can safely assume what he really means overall: That God is Sovereign, therefore go out and vote what is right, not abortion, and secure your hope in His Sovereignty, not politics or a candidate!
That's what I got from it. But I appreciate your loving critique and concern for clarity. You're love for Piper is clear and evident and encouraging. I look forward to Piper responding back to you, as I'm sure he will.
Just out of curiosity, Justin, do you feel that voting 3rd party (Ralph Nader, Alan Keyes, Bob Barr, Chuck Baldwin) is a way of "Wasting Your Vote"? I personally am tired of voting for the "lesser of two evils", or as Chuck Baldwin says, "really its the evil of two lessers in this election". Do we really live in a two-party system, or does American just function that way for convenience sake?
Just curious as to your thoughts. I wrote a short blog critique on how voting for a 3rd party may be legit.
In Christ for His Glory,
Jonathan Chambers
http://godpolitics.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/mccainpalin-or-obamabiden-is-there-noone-else/
Aside from all the praise here, Justin, I think the point of Dr. Piper's video was exactly to waylay extremism in considering the election.
You know: people have a variety of hopes hanging in the balance in this election. I think it is hard for us white people to really get how publicly liberating it is for our black brothers and sisters to have a credible, eloquent, and in many ways admirable man from their cultural community this close to being president of the United States; I think the same holds true for Governor Palin's candidacy for a different demographic in spite of the backlash against her from some quarters.
But I think Dr. Piper's message was that our hope is not in this election. You know: our hope is not in Dinner tonight, but we will all have dinner. In the same way, our hope is not in this election and we should still have the election. We simply cannot veer into the mad rhetoric of what my wife calls "doggie brains" -- that is, we can't see what is happening right now as the only thing which has happened, or is happening, or will happen.
Let me suggest something here: I want you to imagine whatever it is you think is the worst scenarion for the outcome of tomorrow's election. To me, the worst outcome would be a blindside victory by Nader, but that's another story.
Now, on Wednesday, that's the world we have. You voted your conscience, as did everyone who voted, and now the electoral college has to confirm the voting and we have the worst possible president with the worst possible Legislative branch possible.
How does that change the scope of your life as a disciple of Christ?
Listen: even if FOCA becomes law on Nov 5th, how does that change the mission of the church?
Here's my thing, and then it's back to you and I apologize for overwhelming your meta here. Freakishly-tall Friel was going over this on 29 October with his sidekick "Brainiac", and listening to him something struck me: the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,self-control; against such things there is no law.
That is to say this: in a country where abortion on-demand is simply the rule, should the church try to overcome the government, or should it seek to overcome sin by the work of the Cross? Should is save by the power of the ballot box, or by the power of the Gospel?
It seems to me that all of us here know abortion is wrong. It's not advanced moral calculus: killing babies is wrong. But how many of us who are frankly very worried about the law regarding abortion have given the Gospel in both word and deed to a woman who perceived her need was abortion and not Christ?
I am sure there is one or two out there. What if we sacrificed ourselves for the sake of ending this horror? What if we each took one woman who was going to have an abortion into our home and blessed her with grace at a high cost to ourselves, and sought to either reconcile her to the babiy's father or find her a godly husband to redeem her from her worldly, secular trap?
It will only take a million households, and there is no law against that kind of voting -- against such things there is no law.
What if we lived as if we believed in sacrifice rather than earthly authoritarianism? Would any candidate matter?
This is where we really get after the sovereignty of God: when we live the way He has said to live, not out of some stupid attempt to earn from Him the kind of country we want to live in, but because He has already done so much. This is where we fill up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, people [Col 1:24]. Not in the voting booth, but in the lives of those who are seeking salvation by killing their babies.
Now go vote. Thank you.
Here's the most succint overview I have seen of what an Obama presidency means for pro-life and pro-marriage Christians. Please read!
It's by Dr. Robert Gagnon and can be found here: http://robgagnon.net/ObamaWarOnChristians.htm
Justin,
Thank you for the response. I,too, wondered if John was advocating for one candidate after saying that he wasn't and how race could be put on equal footing with abortion.
As too who God has ordained as our next President, I heard an interesting theory on this put forward by a friend of mine, Fenton Groen, who is running for the New Hampshire State Senate. It's true that God removes kings and God sets up kings, and He is Sovereign over all His creation. How then can it be left to us to "pick" the one whom God has ordained. Well, God HAS ordained the next president, in that he gave us a system of government in which we choose the president according to whatever standards we "choose" to use. It could be said that right now, on the eve of the election, there are two men ordained to become President of the United States. WE are given, not only the right to vote, but the responsibility to vote. It then falls to us choose God's ordained, and to to live with the ramifications of that choice we make.
If we elect a president on the basis of his ethnicity over his stated position on the killing of 3700 babies every day, then we must suffer the remifications of that choice.
The responsibility of Christians to vote with Biblical values cannot be overstated. For those who vote on how much money you will or will not be taxed on, I ask you to consider that this may be, at this time, the epitome of selfishness. One candidate may give us higher taxes than another. But one will certainly remove restrictions on abortions.
Consider Jesus' own words, to render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and to render unto God what is His.
Loren Schanck
Rollinsford, NH
Frank: That is to say this: in a country where abortion on-demand is simply the rule, should the church try to overcome the government, or should it seek to overcome sin by the work of the Cross? Should is save by the power of the ballot box, or by the power of the Gospel?
This is a straw man argument and an utterly complete and gross misrepresenation of what some are saying. No one is suggesting that the church is seeking to overthrow the government. Passion to do good within government does not equal overthrow government.
Frank: Listen: even if FOCA becomes law on Nov 5th, how does that change the mission of the church?
Another gross straw man argument. No one is saying that the mission of the church changes no matter who is elected. I'm wondering, Frank, do you go on Emergent blogs and say the same thing telling Emergents who are voting for Obama that the mission of the church does not change even if McCain is elected??
You also fail to understand that preaching the gospel is not the only good that we can do all the time. I'm going to post a message I said at another blog:
I want to share a few things, and this is from DA Carson's Book Christ and Culture Revisited.
First to mention that principle of how we should vote is comes from Romans 13. When Paul makes his argument on how we should govern ourselves he tells us what good government looks like: restrain evil, collect necessary taxes and act as God's servant in ruling. Now, Carson reminds us that we are living in an age and society of democracy where it is possible to good within government in a way not open to most (if not any) believers in Paul's day.
Two: The OT established the obligation of God's people to seek the good of the city in which they are exiled, even if it is not their permanent home. I say this, because there are many people who say we are acting as if this is our permanent home. We are not, we're just doing what the Bible tells us.
Three: the prophet Daniel gives an excellent and stellar example of faithful government service, establishing a reputation for integrity.
Four: We are told, when we have an opportunity to do good especially those who belong to the family of believers. (Gal 6:10)
Preaching the gospel has been something available to believers in Paul's day as is today (some nations you die for it, just like Paul's day). Voting is something that was not available in Paul's day.
Frank: This is where we really get after the sovereignty of God: when we live the way He has said to live, not out of some stupid attempt to earn from Him the kind of country we want to live in, but because He has already done so much.
Your latter part of the statement is another gross straw man. No one is trying to earn the kind of country we want. Our refrain has been remember mercy and don't give us what we deserve. The first part of your statement is exactly what we are trying to do (see DA Carson's arguments).
Frank: Here's my thing, and then it's back to you snip snip
Thank goodness!
Frank: snip snip and I apologize for overwhelming your meta here.
I accepted your apology, now please stop misrepresenting what some are saying. You are on the wrong blogs, go and criticize theonomists and Christian Reconstructionist blogs.
Derek Webb (a prophetic voice in the Christian music community and author of the provocative lines "There are two great lies that I’ve heard: \ 'The day you eat of the fruit of that tree, you will not surely die' \ And that Jesus Christ was a white, middle-class Republican....") has a good take on this election:
it is never advisable, in any decision that you make, to violate your conscience. As it applies to this election, you might have serious moral conflicts with both candidates, and therefore feel as though you must vote in a defensive manner or for the lesser of two evils.
Now let me say before I go any further that that may not be you. And in terms of the body of followers of Jesus, it would likely be sinful if we were all reaching the same conclusions on how to best love our neighbors, so there’s plenty of room for a difference of opinion there. But if that is you, I have a few suggestions:
1. Look through your bible for a mandate that you must vote.
2. When you don’t find one, listen to that conscience of yours. That’s what it’s there for, to be a guide and a red flag when you’re making difficult and significant decisions.
What I’m not saying: you should not vote.
What I am saying: if your conscience is seriously conflicted over both candidates, you are at liberty to not vote.
...
These matters of conscience are serious and should be considered at great length. I have many friends who have considered the issues of this current election in all their nuances and have chosen to vote for either Obama, McCain, or a 3rd party candidate, and I support them in doing so. Again, we are diverse members of one body in our following of Jesus. It would be suspicious if we all reached identical conclusions to such complex problems. So again, maybe there is no conflict of conscience for you in this election. By all means vote. But if there is, be at liberty not to vote.
(For more reasons not to vote, see this Freakonomics column.)
I'd add that conservative Christians in America tend to put too much hope in the political system (a top-down approach to fixing problems) and not enough of their time and money into the front lines (a bottom-up approach). JT has been an outspoken proponent of adoption, which is a key element in the bottom-up approach, and we can list others that we should also support such as crisis pregnancy centers and other services to help struggling mothers and families. We need to take to heart the liberal criticism that our "pro-life" attitude stops when the child exits the womb.
On the other hand, overturning Roe v. Wade, while commendable, is largely a symbolic effort that won't achieve much -- just drive across state lines to get your abortion. So stop looking at Roe as the holy grail and instead get out there and sacrifice your money, your time, your lifestyle, and indeed your very life on the front lines for those that you have thus far only tried to protect through abstractions like political processes. Actions, not words, are the mark of love.
I preach to myself as much as to you.
In my view, defending abortion is far worse sin for a man than serving as Vice President is for a woman.
Oh, gosh, I'm so thankful, too, that he made this distinction. A woman VP is just a little, tiny, perfectly-acceptable-considering-the-alternative sin.
I'm sorry, but to write that it is a sin for a woman to be Vice President (tell me if I'm misreading the letter or spirit of this. Honestly.) is just ludicrous. On what basis? Do I have to read, or re-read one of his books to "get" the proof?
Can not this kind of stuff be dismissed out-of-hand?
Justin,
Great nuanced balanced respectful critique of Piper. Its what I've come to expect from the best blog on the web. Nevertheless, it is a critique taking him gently to task: you end not saying anything he said was wrong, or even that his beliefs on sovereignty and responsibility are wrong, but that he provides "no guidance or encouragement for political persuasion and engagement" and that someone could take it the wrong way, it could "sound like" fatalism. Even from this short piece where you like his reminder and the thrust, you are disappointed in him that he, I guess, should be clear about for whom to vote (?) and tone, much like djp's earlier critique. I respectfully agree to disagree with you, and thought he was pitch-perfect for his audience... people mostly like you and I who needed to have that initial confused "huh?" reaction.
I ditto frank turk's thoughts, and would add that we need to remember our 1Cor 12 teaching that we need to be careful to respect the different functions of the different parts of the Body.
Piper's specific assigned post and calling is probably unto the Lord much different than an Al Mohler, or those like you and djp who feel the call as christian blogger-leaders to get out there more in those specifics and policy weeds and to warn of the dangers of an Obama administration; I doubt Piper would think to state that it ought to be the calling of your writing ministry to spend less time on politics and spend proportional time as he does on calling men to risk on the mission field or in translating the gospel, or in supporting the persecuted church, and provide more specific guidance in these areas, don't you see the importance Justin! I think he understands even in Christian leadership, we have different roles.
Piper has earned the right to be cut some slack in making mature determinations for where he senses peoples' hearts need guidance in using the platform God in his grace has given him over time. He speaks specifically to what he sees in his congregation in the video, and evangelical culture more generally. If we see him being frankly WRONG on an issue, lets engage him or call him out; I disagree with him at times (e.g. thinks he goes a bit too far on women in secular leadership suggesting perhaps its necessarily 'sin', and hey, i'm a presbyterian). But I believe in light of all this kerfuffle that he has earned the right to be cut just a bit more slack on issues of discernment of heart guidance and emphasis and his decision in his wisdom not to be explicit of being quoted as directing people to specifically vote for a specific candidate and instead using his ltd time for what was more important to him. You want Wilberforces! In the end, I think the irony is that his heart penetrating "pietistic" approach will be found to have created many times over more world-changing culturally-engaged Wilberforces than a dozen of your top ten Reformed-Stone-lecture-type "Redeem/engage-the-culture" focused leaders who tend to look condescendingly at being so insistent on being so darn persistently heavenly-minded.
It is just when the things of the world seem most urgent and compelling that some of the best of us are tempted in our witness and hearts to be drawn from what matters most; I'm glad God has given us a man like Piper in this generation that can be relied upon to keep that focus and go against the grain in reminding us to do the same to complement the MANY more members in the body telling us policies and people to advocate and avoid. If you did not see in that short clip "guidance" and a "positive vision" for how the CHRISTIAN is to engage in "political persuasion", no matter how in depth one gets, than I don't believe you were really listening (or you disagree) with what he said and exemplified.
Steveprost,
You've basically written a very, very long post and it's totally an hominen argument. (In this case, not attacking the characteristic and belief of the person, but appealing to it.)
You just said, we need to cut Piper some slack, because, well, he's John Piper. You have not addressed one iota of the substance of the argument.
You're letting your admiration for John Piper (which many us do, admire him) cloud your judgment to addressing the substance of the argument.
"On the other hand, overturning Roe v. Wade, while commendable, is largely a symbolic effort that won't achieve much"
Sure it will. The law will no longer be a federal law. The abortion issue will go back to the States.
"A reversal in opinion by only one justice would free the states to pass laws which would allow individual states to re-criminalized early abortions."
It would be a wonderful thing if Roe was overturned, and this right to kill a baby was unconstitutional again.
CR:
You say I didn't an iota of Justin's argument; I specifically addressed what Justin summarized as being wrong with Piper's comments. You ignore that. But on the specific issue of Piper's character/person which you imply are irrelevant:
I spent years as a trial atty. Even in a court of law, character evidence and 'reputation' evidence and the extent of someone's expertise in an area (herein, we are speaking of pastoral discretion of a proven master of the art) is permissible and highly relevant even on substantive matters. The Bible often and the Apostle Paul often resort to the character of the speaker for authority for persuasion of substantive points. Justin critiques Piper essentially not on any specific political policy (for which I think Justin is probably in many areas more well-read then Piper based on his level of engagement but Justin does not say they disagree anywhere), but nebulously on Piper's emphasis and discretion as a pastor-communicator and pastoral leader and how he should have chosen to give specific advice on how to prioritize different biblical factors to come to specific decisions and to push people to be more engaged rather than discerning other biblical truths that needing pointing out and illuminating to those who listen to Piper as a pastor. Amidst other points you ignored, I stated what is quite germane to Justin's very subjective critique of Piper's overall pastoral judgment and leadership in a short clip in guiding Christians how they should be responding to the election: ANY Pastor should be cut a LOT of slack in the exercise of discerning what his OWN congregation need to hear from the whole counsel of God when speaking as a pastor, let alone someone of Piper's established reputation and expertise in this area of pastorally exegeting his people and the biblical guidance needed. In this arena, Justin necessarily has had a very large burden of persuasion and evidence to make his case in this arena, and I found his argument lacking for reasons of, yes, Piper's proven character in this area, and other reasons stated in my comment that you seemed to have missed.
Excellent post, Justin. I agree with you on every point.
I have the deepest respect for John Piper and his views on many things. I must say I don’t agree with most evangelicals on abortion and also on Obama’s potential as a future president for USA.
I will start with the pro-life issue.
The so called pro-life supporters amaze me, but not as much as the pro-choice supporters. Bible passages such as psalms 139 definitely teach us that life begins way before conception. Should this therefore be a case against abortion? Or should this be a point to consider, and a great one too, before making the decision to abort? I think most of the times the hammer will lie on the pro-life.
Nevertheless…Pro-choice supporters do not be so liberal on your views on abortion. Pro-life supporters do not be like the Pharisees, who will let the real murderers go- murderers who have killed in cold blood during the Iraq war…but punish women who have to make some of the toughest decisions anyone can ever make.
This brings me to whether we should vote for Obama or Mcain. As a black person (but more than anything, a very God-fearing born again Christian) I unreservedly and unashamedly support Obama – because he is black. I think that Obama’s election will help to change the appalling view that most white people have (including white Christians): that black people are idiots who can never be anything. I must say though, that I fear for Obama. I fear that he will make huge mistakes, just like any politician, but the brand will be felt by black people. His success, his fame will affect black people.
Why are evangelicals hiding beneath the abortion issue? Why can’t they be honest and say that they fear that a black man will rule the most important nation in the world? For sure, the heart is really the most deceptive thing. If I was white I would fear the same thing.
I understand that some genuine evangelicals would have loved to see a black man as president but feel constrained because of their deep rooted views on abortion and perhaps genuine? fears of national security. I remain persuaded, however that this is mainly a race issue.
In all I think God has great sense of humor. Obama, who could be the only hope for black people and those generally oppressed and marginalized in the whole world, happens to support what some genuine Christians would disagree with. McCain on the other hand, with the stain of the Iraq war and other nasty things (looks like a monster) he seems to be the only hope for conservative white middle class Christians. Indeed Obama might be God’s instrument for bringing judgment to America and the world – and that would be a shame on the blacks. On the other hand, Obama could be God’s instrument for justice, peace, righteousness, equity, fairness and integrity.
To be honest, I will vote for him anyway –because he is black.
May God’s will be done!
Steveprost: In this arena, Justin necessarily has had a very large burden of persuasion and evidence to make his case in this arena, and I found his argument lacking for reasons of, yes, Piper's proven character in this area, and other reasons stated in my comment that you seemed to have missed.
I "rest my case." You are addressing this from ad hominen rather than addressing the substance of the argument, which is why it is very painstakingly difficult to read through your post to find substance.
So many have already said so much but, please, allow me to address a few points.
One commenter earlier wrote that Obama’s “character, evidenced by his stance on the abortion issue, income redistribution, associations with known terrorists, etc., is what should decide whether or not one votes for him.”
How does advocating the raising of taxes for those whose income is $250,000 or more (I assume this is the issue being labeled “income redistribution”) represent a mark against someone’s character? Personally, as someone firmly situated within the “middle class”, who has never been in danger of having a household income anywhere near $250,000, it sounds like a good idea to me. Is a government’s raising taxes prohibited by Scripture? If so, please show me the chapter and verse.
Also, how is living in the same neighborhood as, or serving on the same committee with, or being the recipient of a fundraiser (when he was running for the Illinois state senate) hosted by Bill Ayers tantamount to associating with a known terrorist? We know what Bill Ayers did 40 years ago as a radical activist in the 1960s. And far be it from me to excuse him for what he did. But, honesty should force us to admit that Barack Obama was eight years old when Ayers committed those heinous acts. Also, factual accuracy should compel us to recognize that Ayers is now a long-time professor of education at the University of Illinois at Chicago. According to reputable accounts I’ve read, Obama and Ayers are not close friends. Obama’s acquaintance with a respected professor, who happened to be a radical activist 40 years ago, is not the same as associating with a known terrorist. This is simply fear-mongering.
I think the Republican Party has most evangelicals in their hip pocket, as it were, all because of the abortion issue. We Evangelicals have bought the lie that we can fight a spiritual battle (i.e., abortion) with the carnal weapon of political power. Yet, 36 years later, Roe v Wade is still the law of the land. It seems to me we’ve gone about this all wrong. Hating or speaking/writing hatefully about our political opponents accomplishes nothing good. Evangelicals have become so wrapped up in political power we’ve forgotten how to pray for and love our enemies. Our close association with Republican Party politics has only damaged Evangelicalism.
As far as character, the way John McCain treated his first wife speaks volumes about his character, just as Obama’s relationship with his one-and-only wife and his daughters speaks volumes about his character.
In this election, I refuse to be a one-issue voter.
Steve Prost:
Thank you very much for you post about cutting John Piper slack. Honestly, I almost wept when I read that because you are 100% right about his great ministry, having helped create 1000 more world-changing, culture engaging Wilberforces than so many who just talk about redeeming culture.
Imperfections aside, Piper is mightily used by God. While having served overseas for several years in the military, there were many, many times when I was very, very blessed to listen to his sermons online. I will be sure to keep all of this in mind - and cut him some slack, as you say.
Thank you for serving to our country, Chaplain! God bless.
FOCA, someone correct me if I'm wrong does not allow med students or doctors to opt out of abortion procedures??????
Yes, see B2W on FOCA, here. Read last paragraph.
Ooops, I did the wrong link. It's here.
"…but punish women who have to make some of the toughest decisions anyone can ever make."
Who's punishing these women? Seems like they simply kill the baby, and go and do what they would rather do without the baby, for the most part, for convenience sake.
There are the 5% or so who do struggle with rape, incest, and other things. These are always shown compassion for the most part.
There are some radical anti-abortion types, but they are few.
Just as there is Obama, who is one of the few, and ONLY Senator who endorses infanticide, and voted against The Born Alive Act. He also strongly supports partial birth abortion to the max. He is way to the left, and radical, and as you said black.
I don't vote because of skin color myself.
I wish Allan Keys was on the ticket instead of Mccain to be honest.
"Yet, 36 years later, Roe v Wade is still the law of the land."
It took just about that many years to abolish slavery in England.
So we may just be on the threshold with McCain/Palin of overturning Roe!!
With Obama, sad to think what he will try to establish concerning abortion, and infanticide.
Sad day for a lot of babies, and for all the people who think abortion is an alright procedure because the law says it's a legal kill.
In my bible Barak came under Deborah. She was a great commander and chief. Proverbs 31 anybody. This kind of thing gets me upset.
Justin, I think your post probably reflects in part what John now wishes he would have said.
Personally, I have no problems with his original post because I realize that a blog is just a snapshot. Just food for thought. It is not all-encompassing.
To really look at how someone feels on a topic, you have to look at their life's work and the context in which they are speaking/writing.
To this end, I think his post was not so much on who to vote for, but rather to be careful to watch out for things that are more important than even this election.
Some people out there are deluding themselves by thinking one of the two tickets is really good. Almost idolizing them. In reality, both tickets are less than desirable and Piper states two of those reasons in his short speech.
I think this election once again is voting for the lesser of two evils, but in this case, McCain/Palin is the clear evangelical Christian choice.
Hazel S,
As a black person (but more than anything, a very God-fearing born again Christian) I unreservedly and unashamedly support Obama – because he is black.
Thanks for being so candid about being a racist. Shame on you.
I think that Obama’s election will help to change the appalling view that most white people have (including white Christians): that black people are idiots who can never be anything.
You have some nerve writing something like that. Some of my favorite intellectuals are "black" and many other "white" people share that respect. Several that come immediately to mind: Thomas Sowell (economist), Walter Williams (economist), George Washington Carver (peanut butter has always been one of my favorites), and Vivien Theodore Thomas (helped develope the fontan heart procedure that saved the life of one of my nieces).
Why are evangelicals hiding beneath the abortion issue? Why can’t they be honest and say that they fear that a black man will rule the most important nation in the world?
Believe it or not, there is NOT a racist behind every tree. I'm hiding beneath the abortion issue? Was I hiding beneath it when I didn't support several Republican candidates for president because of their pro-abortion stance? Was that racist? Give me a break.
Obama, who could be the only hope for black people and those generally oppressed and marginalized in the whole world...
Ever hear of the Jesus of the Bible?
To be honest, I will vote for him anyway –because he is black.
If a white person said the same thing except substituting "white" for "black" I would call him a racist pig. It seems like the shoe fits you as well.
CR:
But I think Dr. Piper's message was that our hope is not in this election. You know: our hope is not in Dinner tonight, but we will all have dinner. In the same way, our hope is not in this election and we should still have the election. We simply cannot veer into the mad rhetoric of what my wife calls "doggie brains" -- that is, we can't see what is happening right now as the only thing which has happened, or is happening, or will happen.
That's the core of my comment. Re-read the comment in that light.
Me: On the other hand, overturning Roe v. Wade, while commendable, is largely a symbolic effort that won't achieve much....
Donsands: Sure it will. The law will no longer be a federal law. The abortion issue will go back to the States.
Don, you failed to quote the rest of my sentence: "-- just drive across state lines to get your abortion." To me, that means it won't achieve much more than symbolic victory.
...in this case, McCain/Palin is the clear evangelical Christian choice.
exactly ...
... wrong.
what the post is about is that there is no 'clear evangelical Christian choice,' that there rarely will be one, and that we really shouldn't expect one.
-mr
Steve & Frank,
Excellent and thoughtful posts. That is precisely what I took from Dr. Piper's video and Justin's critique.
Those who criticize what you have said have not been given ears to hear and eyes to see. They are the ones who most need to hear what John Piper has said.
Matthaeus,
Do you really think that being required to travel to another state would not be a serious impediment to many of the 3700 women who have an abortion each day??
JT
Donsands said, "I wish Alan Keys was on the ticket instead of Mccain to be honest."
Are you so sure about that?
The Republican Party in Illinois recruited Keys from Maryland to run for the Senate from Illinois. Keys totally embarassed himself and the Illinois Republican Party. Barack Obama beat Keys in a landslide to win the US Senate race in Illinois.
Keys was a pro-life disgrace. What's the use in being "right on the issues" and totally lacking in common sense?
Deron Arnold said,
"McCain/Palin is the clear evangelical Christian choice."
Have you taken a poll of Christian Evangelicals who happen to be African-American? The choice is not as clear as some would like to think.
JT: Do you really think that being required to travel to another state would not be a serious impediment to many of the 3700 women who have an abortion each day??
True, it would make it slightly less convenient (depending on the cities and states in question, of course), but is it less convenient than carrying a baby for 9 mos. and then completely changing one's life and aspirations to care for it? No. Most women who want abortion will suffer a 4 hour road trip make it happen if distance is truly the barrier.
Again, that doesn't mean that overturning Roe isn't preferable or that some restrictions aren't better than none. Just that it will not even come close to accomplishing the goal of abolishing abortion.
And yet we evangelicals have had a laser-like focus on it and contribute our time and resources to overturning it when a bottom-up approach that seeks to converts hearts and minds through word and deed gets neglected. "As long as I made a campaign contribution to and voted for Republicans, I've done my duty toward the defenseless." Meanwhile, children languish in a horrid foster care system so that we can have bigger houses and SUVs and go out to dinner more often.
Piper encourages all to be more focused on God than anything else and I appreciate that.
I also agree with a statement a friend used to make, "The best place to pray for potatoes is at the end of the hoe handle." And so we see in this the principle of working as if it all depended on politics and praying as if it all depended on God (for it does).
"Most women who want abortion will suffer a 4 hour road trip make it happen if distance is truly the barrier."
How do you know that?
The bottom line for me is that in 1972 abortion was not a legal way to kill babies in America.
This nation changed, and said it is legal to kill a baby in the womb.
How many abortions were there 10 years prior to 1973, and how many after?
And the bottom bottom line is that it's a barbaric and wicked thing to kill babies, and encourage it, and to see this most heinous sin become no different than pulling tooth to many people. It's very sad indeed.
"I am convinced that the first step towards attaining a higher standard of holiness is to realize more fully the amazing sinfulness of sin."-JC Ryle
The world is the world, and hates the truth. But the Church should hear what Bishop Ryle says. I pray the Church will wake up and see just how wicked sin is, and it it magnified in the killing of innocent life. Even the world sees how evil abortion, is in some sectors, more so than the Church.
And I have said their are surely crazy radicals who are extreme in their anti-abortion stance. But that doesn't, and shouldn't discourage us from hating this sin and being anti-abortion, and speaking out with passion for the children who will have their arms and legs torn apart, their heads crushed like a walnut, and brains sucked out, and even left to die alone in a room.
Obama likes abortion, and he will do all he can to keep it legal; with all his might.
Me: Most women who want abortion will suffer a 4 hour road trip make it happen if distance is truly the barrier.
donsands: How do you know that?
I gave my reasoning above: women who want an abortion will generally consider a brief road trip a small inconvenience compared to 18+ years of childcare and sacrifice.
donsands: And the bottom bottom line is that it's a barbaric and wicked thing to kill babies, and encourage it....
Agreed, but my point was and is that overturning Roe will not achieve the goal of eliminating abortion. It will, at best, make it a bit more inconvenient, which is a fine goal, but not one that should be pursued to the virtual exclusion of the bottom-up approach I mentioned. This is a both-and rather than an either-or situation, and our emphasis should be on the bottom-up, not the top-down, since the cultural divide will not go away apart from changing hearts and minds through Holy Spirit's intervention.
"Are you so sure about that?"
Yep. Keys speaks up, and you don't have to second guess him. I might disagree here and there, but he is solid in his conservatism and he's a constitutionalist, which Obama hates BTW.
I live in MD. I voted for him when he ran against Mikulski. MD is a huge big time liberal democratic state, and he did pretty well considering.
"I gave my reasoning above"
Seemed to be more of a certainty the way you wrote it.
I'm simply saying you don't know that. And to think that could be the case is fine.
When Wilberforce contended against slavery for all those years, do you think people said to him after 30 years perhaps, that even if you do work this thing out it won't really do away with slavery completely?
Just thinking off the top of my head.
Matthaeus Flexibilis,
Should we legalize rape? The laws have not abolished it. They have just resulted in rapes occurring in back alleys with women often dying as a result.
Shouldn't rape be rare, safe and legal?
donsands: When Wilberforce contended against slavery for all those years, do you think people said to him after 30 years perhaps, that even if you do work this thing out it won't really do away with slavery completely?
I think you're missing my point. It's not that overturning Roe is a bad idea, just that it has drawn too much attention away from the areas of our personal responsibility. Besides, the slavery analogy is somewhat inapt since Wilberforce's deeds abolished the slave trade insofar as his country was involved in it. Overturning Roe would turn the matter back to the states, many of which would keep it legal and easy. Imagine instead Wilberforce abolishing the slave trade unless one lived in Kent, Portsmouth, Plymouth, or several other counties.
Stan McCullars: Should we legalize rape?
Your reductio ad absurdum fails because I am not making that argument at all. Abortion should be illegal, and Roe should be overturned.
I merely oppose those who think politics is the answer. Overturning Roe has become an obsession to the exclusion of other valid ways of attacking the problem, not least of which is personally engaging in a bottom-up approach such as adoption, crisis pregnancy clinics, etc. etc.
thanks to Steve Prost and Frank Turk for getting the gist of Piper's message and enlightening CR, etc...
the Emergents certainly have some huge issues with their "theology" etc...but they have brought good critiques of modern-day Christianity to the forefront...it seems some who want to fire shots from behind a white picket fence in suburbia could do well to consider these critiques rather than spewing hatred (read CR's comments above)...
i think Justin's response to Piper was unnecessary...and Piper has no reason to defend the comments...the DG website has enough material for anyone who is uncertain about his views, etc...
Please lets not think that abortion is the only reason to oppose Obama.
We have a unique ability in this Country to vote for our freedoms. We've already decided to not vote for murderers but lets make sure we know that they were mugging people long before they became murderers.
God put the US constitution in authority over us first and therefore a candidate who is against the constitution is against God.
Amy (Whose Profile is not Available and is probably an Emergent): it seems some who want to fire shots from behind a white picket fence in suburbia snip snip
Actually, I live in an apartment (my rent is under $700 a month)in the city.
Ryan,
Of the two candidates running for president, only one of them has credentials as a scholar of the US Constitution and it isn't John McCain.
I may not be voting for Obama but I think your attack is unfair and false.
I know this is last minute given that I will be voting in 7 hours or so. Does anyone else feel that the choice between McCain and Obama is a false choice? Granted, one of these two men will win on Nov. 4. But as for me, I will be voting for Chuck Baldwin. He is the only true pro-life candidate in this race. We know where Obama stands, and McCain allows for exceptions in the cases of rape, incest, and when the mother's life is at stake (does this really happen in America?). Both candidates will allow federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. Given a choice between Obama and McCain, I would certainly lean McCain as I have been a life-long Republican, but in this election, I will be voting for Chuck Baldwin.
Justin,
Thanks for your ministry.
Before we get too excited about McCain, take a look at the following record:
http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/ballot_box/sanctity_of_life_voter_guide_1.aspx.
Please allow me to encourage you and the others with some thoughts I posted over at my blog: http://broadriverbaptistchurch.blogspot.com/.
I do not mean to debate you regarding McCain but I think we need to vote for a man that we need not be scratching our heads wondering (check out baldwin08.com). Otherwise, a no-vote is a statement just as much as a vote. To not vote is a statement of conscientious 'no' to candidates who do not represent their concerns nor conscience.
At the end of the day, we can be confident that the Lord will answer all our cries for righteousness, fairness, vengeance, justice, etc. Praise God for the story's end - even though we endure the present vexations of soul.
Thanks,
Steve L.
There are two candidates running for president. There are a number of people suffering from serious delusion who think there are others running for president. To vote for someone other than the two who are actually in the race is to waste a vote and support FOCA. If you want to make a statement, write a letter to the editor. If you want to vote in the presidential election, by all means do so but quit trying to convince yourself and others that you're not wasting your vote and turning your back on the unborn. Deep down I think you know that's what you're doing.
Matthaeus Flexibilis,
Abortion should be illegal, and Roe should be overturned.
I'm happy to read that. Your position was hidden in a fog, at least to me (and I can be pretty slow). Thanks for coming out with a clear statement.
Stan,
There are two candidates running for president. There are a number of people suffering from serious delusion who think there are others running for president.
Ooooh that's good.
A vote for Baldwin, or any other third party Conservative is a vote for Obama and abortion. This is Election 101, folks.
"It's not that overturning Roe is a bad idea, just that it has drawn too much attention away from the areas of our personal responsibility."
I don't think it has.
To some extreme radicals it has, but for the majority of us who speak out strongly, we also understand the whole sphere of this heinous sin.
But it's the ripping up babies that is the drive of the heart, but never to exceed the Gospel, and the glory of God, which should be the overall mindset of our will, and the reason we do all that we do.
Justin,
I appreciate your ministry and this post.
I do, however, think that you and others might be reading (or, hearing) too much into what John Piper said.
I know you prefaced your post with the given that videos, blogs, etc. have their limitations in what is said and not said.
So, with that said, I think it might be hard to judge Piper fairly when you seem to be putting forth an argument in a way that makes him say things or infer things he didn't say.
For a person's words to "sound like" (or, "appear that") they are saying a certain thing, is different than their words actually saying what they said.
Doing what we can while trusting in the King,
JTC
Justin, it concerns me greatly that you and numerous others have reduced the meaning of pro-life to the extremely important but not all-encompassing issue of abortion. I believe that there are many, many human rights issues that go into a candidate being truly "pro-life."
For example, at some point in history there may be a candidate who would eliminate foreign aid that is critical to feeding the hungry and curing the sick in order to afford tax cuts for the wealthy at home, and would unnecessarily and preemptively extend foreign conflicts causing loss of life for our troops, enemy combatants, and unfortunate civilians (including children).
If this candidate opposed abortion and favored over-turning Roe v. Wade, then according to the framework you have laid out he or she would be pro-life and thus you would support him or her.
These are just two quick examples that I think relate directly to the job of the president, however I believe being pro-life extends beyond the framework of the president of the US and extends to many, many issues inlcuding eradicating human trafficking and sex trafficking worldwide, and ending genocide. Abortion is a travesty and it is the worst form of injustice occuring in the United States today - - but it is not all that goes into being pro-life and to commit to always casting a vote on simply this one issue is a very dangerous and narrow minded conviction.
To Stan,
Have you read the links in my comments above?
Is our vote the determinating factor in this election?
Proverbs 16:33 33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.
The government by the interest of many people have included other viable candidates that all of us have the freedom to vote. Will you grant me that privilege?
Stan, you criticize me for promoting another viable option in this race when you are promoting just the same. Is this just?
Even having done all we can, we can trust our sovereign God. Even if I am thrown to the lions by Nero look-a-likes, I can still trust in our Sovereign God for he appoints who He wills into authority as Rom. 13 states.
Let me vote my conscience for a man who is truly and fully against abortion. I will let you vote your conscience to vote for a lessor of two evils. Please take a look as McCain's record again:
http://www.visionforumministries.org/resources/library/issues/ballot_box/2008-VoterGuide.pdf
Thanks.
Drew,
I agree that being opposed to abortion is not all that goes into being pro-life.
Also, note the quote above from Piper: being pro-life doesn't qualify you for office, but being pro-abortion does disqualify you.
Hope that helps.
JT
fascinating post. does the Bible really disqualify women from serving in positions of political leadership? what about deborah or esther? my understanding of submission and complementarianism is that women have a specific role both in their families and churches, but how does this leak into the political realm? does piper address this? how would you? just discovered your blog. nice.
Steve,
I don't like "spin".
I won't say I've never engaged in it, but my intention is not to.
The chart from Vision Forum is "spin" at it's worst -- as follows:
1. To say that McCain "supports" pro-abortion Justices is ridiculous. He has stated repeatedly that his ideals of a Justice are embodied in those who are strict contructionists.
Did he vote to *affirm* pro-abortion Justices? Yes, because the Constitution itself gives the right of appointment to the President, and only for extreme cause does the Senate have the right to deny that appointment.
That's exactly why it is so important to block Obama.
2. To say that McCain opposes actively fighting Roe v. Wade is to miss the point of the Executive Branch's role in Supreme Court decisions. The President's role is to appoint the judges. In McCain's case, that means strict constructionists who may well overturn Roe v. Wade.
One thing is for certain -- neither Obama nor Baldwin will appoint anti-abortion judges; Obama because he is pro-abortion, and Baldwin because HE CAN'T GET ELECTED.
3. The final "spin" from Vision Forum is the notion *implied* that a vote for Baldwin is NOT a vote for Obama. In fact IT IS a vote for Obama, and therefore abortion.
I don't believe anyone is "denying" you the right to vote your conscience, nor implying that you should "violate" your conscience.
But I, for one, am hoping to break through a sentimental conscience and replace it with a biblically effective and informed one.
As I would, for example, in the case of someone who was going to cast a write-in vote for Jesus Christ (a far superior candidate to Chuck Baldwin).
It's called "persuading men", a pretty biblical concept in itself.
Thanks JT. I didn't really develop my hypothetical enough I think. I also have not read in full the Piper book referenced in your post, thus my concerns may have already been addressed within it.
My point was that in some future election we may be forced to pick between one candidate that is weak on abortion and one that is weak on human rights and in favor of extending conflict overseas, and that by blindly voting for the "pro-life" candidate we could potentially endorse more loss of life.
This year's election is unique because it appears that two or even three supreme court appoints will come up during the next candidate's term and because of the appalling partial birth abortion aspect.
However, in future elections (where supreme court appointments seem unlikely and there is little pending legislation about abortion either way) abortion may not be an area where the President has much influence, whereas eradicating starvation, limiting devestation by infectious disease, and limiting loss of life in armed conflicts would have much more of the President's day to day involvement.
I believe that in such an election those of us who are pro-life across the board would have to make a very difficult evaluation of all factors and that it would not be responsible to relegate ourselves to any single issue. I definitely affirm the quoted passages that the lives of the unborn are more important than balancing the budget or taxes. But in the future economic issues may not be all that abortion is weighed against.
the drew...
...well said.
-mr
Steve,
...another viable option in this race...
Really. And who would that be? To not vote or to vote for someone other than McCain is to support the expansion of baby butchering.
the drew,
You speak of tax cuts for the wealthy.
What do you mean by that? It sounds like typical class warfare rhetoric.
By definition a tax cut should directly benefit most those who pay the most taxes. People who pay no income taxes obviously cannot benefit directly from a tax cut.
Is it a biblical mandate to vote? Is it a moral failure not to vote, especially if your position on abortion is pro-life?
Should every one-issue voter also be willing to adopt a child that is about to be aborted? In other words, when did voting take the place of real action? I know that this point will be debated (i.e. voting is "real action").
I think the government should execute justice, but when they don't it seems in America our answer is almost always to go through the government for "change". What if Christians all over America started offering to adopt children that would otherwise be aborted? Would that be a better example of "justice"? Have we settled for less by mostly, only voting?
I'm thinking out loud here and I haven't adopted any "otherwise" aborted children. I just wanted to throw out a struggle that I have with Christian politics. The seeming inconsistency...
Stan McCullars: To not vote or to vote for someone other than McCain is to support the expansion of baby butchering.
That is the absurd, Procrustean, unbiblical conscience-binding that Derek Webb (and I) reject. See above. In short, the world is more complicated than your overtly reductionist picture allows.
queue,
Is it a biblical mandate to vote?
Of course not.
Is it a biblical mandate to pull a child out from the path of an oncoming car?
Of course not.
But one needs to realize that if you do neither of those things, you are complicit in the result.
Not complicated.
To not vote to block Obama is to be complicit in he pro-abortion agenda.
Not complicated.
I realize the far-flung implications of this. For me not to go to African jungles to preach the Gospel is to be complicit in their not hearing. So there are choices to be made, priorities and leadings to follow.
But people, voting against Obama is such an EASY thing to do.
C'mon, stop philosophizing, and at least TRY to stop him.
Please.
Justin,
Thanks for the thoughtful post. I don't know if I see fatalism in Piper as much as I see, "your kingdom come, your will be done." With that in mind I think that we should exercise the freedoms that we have been blessed to be born into with freedom of speech and enfranchisement being just two of them.
Peace
Tony
www.kingdombard.com
Sorry Stan, I didn't mean to slip "for the wealthy" in without qualifying it. I mean tax cuts in America, I was trying to refer to America as being wealthy in comparison to many of the countries where we send life-saving aid.
I understand why tax cuts do and should benefit the wealthy the most (as the major taxpayers). I do not want to start any social class rivalry rhetoric. By and large I wish that we could have widespread tax cuts, eliminate inefficient government spending and programs, and depend on contributions to the private sector (and the church) for the pro-life efforts I was describing.
However I am afraid that is unrealistic in this fallen world and I am happy to see that, despite many other policies that do not seem to be pro-life, this current administration has done wonderful things to promote the extension of life through medical care, food, and education in Africa.
the drew,
Thanks for the clarification.
My lunch will be that much more enjoyable.
Matthaeus Flexibilis,
As you noted, I wrote: To not vote or to vote for someone other than McCain is to support the expansion of baby butchering.
You are free to reject it. Your rejection does not change the fact that To not vote or to vote for someone other than McCain is to support the expansion of baby butchering.
Using nice words nice words like Procrustean and reductionist does not change the fact that To not vote or to vote for someone other than McCain is to support the expansion of baby butchering.
Hazel S said...
“This brings me to whether we should vote for Obama or Mcain. As a black person (but more than anything, a very God-fearing born again Christian) I unreservedly and unashamedly support Obama – because he is black. I think that Obama’s election will help to change the appalling view that most white people have (including white Christians): that black people are idiots who can never be anything.”
There are three basic problems with this appeal:
i) Ironically, in the very process of trying to break down racial stereotypes, Hazel is stereotyping the racial views of “most white people,” including “white Christians.”
How is she in any position to pronounce such a sweeping verdict on the racial views of most whites or white Christians?
ii) Another problem is that, by his own admission, Obama’s academic advancement was the result of racial tokenism (see below). Therefore, the election of a black candidate like Obama would reinforce the very stereotype she’s projecting onto “most whites” and “white Christians.”
iii) Which brings us to the final irony. The idea that blacks need to prove themselves to whites is, itself, a reflection of a racial inferiority complex.
“I'd also like to add one personal note, in response to the letter from Mr. Jim Chen which was published in the October 26 issue of the RECORD, and which articulated broad objections to the Review's general affirmative action policy. I respect Mr. Chen's personal concern over the possible stigmatizing effects of affirmative action, and do not question the depth or sincerity of his feelings. I must say, however, that as someone who has undoubtedly benefited from affirmative action programs during my academic career, and as someone who may have benefited from the Law Review's affirmative action policy when I was selected to join the Review last year, I have not personally felt stigmatized either within the broader law school community or as a staff member of the Review.”
http://media.www.hlrecord.org/media/storage/paper609/news/2008/10/30/Election2008/Record.Retrospective.Obama.On.Affirmative.Action-3515294.shtml
I cannot shake the sense that if Obama is elected, put there by God, but hopefully not voted for by Christians, that the church in this country will experience real persecution for the first time. And this is needed to wake up Christians to how we have compromised and accomodated, even propagated evil in society and in our midst.
To not vote or to vote for someone other than McCain is to support the expansion of baby butchering.
To not vote to block Obama is to be complicit in he pro-abortion agenda.
Not complicated.
Amen brothers! After reading through this thread, I don't understand either how anyone claiming the name of the Lord Jesus Christ could support any candidate with such a radical pro-abortion voting record and personal belief ideology as Obama does.
Sovereignty is not the same thing as fatalism. Get out and vote!
JT
This was a great article - thank you. You should write more and link less :-).
Hazel S said...
“Obama, who could be the only hope for black people and those generally oppressed and marginalized in the whole world.”
Other issues aside, this would be a mite more impressive if Obama began by cutting a personal check to provide for the needs of his own dirt-poor half-brother in Kenya:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/08/20/2008-08-20_barack_obamas_povertystricken_halfbrothe.html
So, Hazel, why can’t *you* be honest and admit that you’re voting for Obama, not because he will do anything for the downtrodden masses around the world, but out of vicarious symbolism?
"..that the church in this country will experience real persecution for the first time."
And we'll find out what are true master is, mammon, or God. Where are treasure is, that's where are heart is, ans where are heart is, that's where our treasure is. We'll find out our true treasure.
It's still kind of painful to think of Obama as the president, makes me feel like I did when Clinton won, but even worse.
Terry and Stan,
Thanks for your passion for the unborn. I share your passion but I certainly can grow to be more passionate than I am presently.
Is it just and logically accurate to accuse me of voting for abortion because I voted for someone who was not statistically able to win the election?
But could we not say the same with you since McCain lost? He lost just the same as Baldwin. Maybe the margins were different, but they both lost and we all voted for losers; so, therefore, we voted for Obama - the advocate for abortion. This logic is absurd.
I do not think your logic holds very well.
That being said - Obama is President; so, let us unite to pray for his salvation and for the Lord to move him in the direction of righteousness.
Thanks for the dialogue.
In many respects, John Piper is a theological throwback. His vision of God sits alongside Piper's own heroes. However, I fear that his penchant for arresting statements has exposed a weakness in his knowledge, thinking, and understanding. I've seen it a few times now, but I'll just use this excerpt to illuminate my point. This comes from your "review," Justin:
...Here's the thesis: "I believe that the endorsement of the right to kill unborn children disqualifies a person from any position of public office." Piper ends by saying that his conviction is "never to vote for a person who endorses such an evil—even if he could balance the budget tomorrow and end all taxation..."
Pastor John could perform a cursory history of socioeconomics and find that the number of children --- embryos, in the womb, and infants --- that have been killed has been exponentially higher in cultures, societies, and regimes that hinder freedom and liberty. China, the old USSR, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, and many leaders that have embraced the theories of socialism, communism, and fascism have birthed the horrific reality of piles and heaps of dead children (and people, at large).
So, low taxation, a free-market society has also been the hub of a society that allows and furthers the planting of churches, the sending of missionaries, and the free proclamation of the Gospel. To the extent that these have been hindered more and more is the extent to which this nation has leaned theologically and politically left in years and decades near to present.
My point is, let's not bifurcate abortion as a moral/biblical issue and capitalist/liberty-based economics as a amoral/a-biblical issue. From the Garden to the Gospels, there is much that God has to say about work, the recognition and reward of one's work, and mankind in general.
May John Piper and all that have a "large voice" amongst Christians know that to make economic liberty a tertiary concern is to allow "public servants" to diminish any and all that is intrinsically valuable.
Theistic worldviews espoused life, liberty, and property (later changed to happiness), so I really wish that Piper would not have created a stepladder of concern there. They are woven together and I fear that he has ripped it apart in the same way that the Emergent Village has.
Tim Adhikari
Deborah was a leader of great significance, one of many whom God has raised amidst a dearth of biblical manhood.
Dr. Piper, where is the line for women's leadership? I understand the ecclesiastic context, but in the civic context, please tell me where the line should be drawn?
Class President? Mayor? Governor? UN Head? Vice President? President?
I would embrace Margaret Thatcher's stewardship and leadership before Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, GWBush, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, etc.
Pastor, with all due respect and love for you and your ministry, your "academic cleverness" should be bridled by the specific and overarching revelation of leadership as penned in the Scriptures.
Steve Loeffler,
But could we not say the same with you since McCain lost? He lost just the same as Baldwin.
Did you come up with that yourself or do you have a team that worked on it? I only ask because that is by far one of the most ridiculous statements of this election cycle.
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