President Obama
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With Ohio being called for Senator Obama, it appears that he will be our next President.
It's very easy to forget--especially for those of us who are on the younger side--that it was only a little over 40 years ago that there were Jim Crow laws in the US. Just a generation ago, many African Americans were segregated from whites in public schools, transportation, restrooms, and restaurants.
Tonight, the United States has elected a biracial man to serve as its leader.
It would be an understatement to call this a watershed cultural moment in our country's history.
No matter who you voted for--or whether you voted at all--it's important to remember that, as President, Barack Obama will have God-given authority to govern us, and that we should view him as a servant of God (Rom. 13:1, 4) to whom we should be subject (Rom. 13:1, 5; 1 Pet. 2:13-14).
It's very easy to forget--especially for those of us who are on the younger side--that it was only a little over 40 years ago that there were Jim Crow laws in the US. Just a generation ago, many African Americans were segregated from whites in public schools, transportation, restrooms, and restaurants.
Tonight, the United States has elected a biracial man to serve as its leader.
It would be an understatement to call this a watershed cultural moment in our country's history.
No matter who you voted for--or whether you voted at all--it's important to remember that, as President, Barack Obama will have God-given authority to govern us, and that we should view him as a servant of God (Rom. 13:1, 4) to whom we should be subject (Rom. 13:1, 5; 1 Pet. 2:13-14).
- We are to pray for Barack Obama (1 Tim. 2:1-2).
- We are to thank God for Barack Obama (1 Tim. 2:1-2).
- We are to respect Barack Obama (Rom. 13:7).
- We are to honor Barack Obama (Rom. 13:7; 1 Pet. 2:17).
posted by JT at Tuesday, November 04, 2008
115 Comments:
I am always weary of those who pluck single verses out of the Bible to prove a point...Should we also take this verse out of the old testament to approve mass murder of 'infidels'?
"They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it--men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys." Joshua 6:21
Regardless of the Scriptural teachings concerning governmental leaders, I feel that this country is headed for dark days under an Obama regime. :-(
I really don't understand how states can be called so early - Obama's lead has already fallen since OH was called, as actual votes have been counted. VA was about the same percentages with the %age of votes counted, but in McCain's favour, and is now a small Obama lead after a lot more of the votes have been counted.
I'd be very surprised if McCain wins, though, given he needs all the uncalled states, plus at least one called for Obama, or likely to go for Obama.
I agree, Justin. It is a watershed moment. I wish abortion wasn't an issue, because I truly want to celebrate the moment. But I can truly appreciate that it is good to see a major chip made in our racist past.
I live in a very racially diverse area. And going to the polls today, I saw many people who clearly had never set foot in a polling booth before. I may disagree with their decision, but it is good to see democracy at work.
JT,
Thanks for your biblical and conciliatory comments. All Christians would do well to prayerfully consider what our Lord has said at this moment. It may be difficult for some to undo the damage they have done to their brothers' consciences through caustic and partisan attacks but all things are possible with God.
SDG
RobertMuldooJP,
If you think I've taken these verses out of context, by all means show, don't just tell. Honestly, I could care less about mere assertions. Arguments I'll take seriously.
Thanks!
JT
I voted this morning for John McCain in a predominantly black precinct in North Carolina. It was interesting to stand in line in the rain with these folks. Many of them were clearly worse off economically from myself. Most of the older ones have no doubt lived through some rough times here in the south in the second half of the 20th century. I could sense in the room that this was a huge moment for nearly all of them.
It made me sad, because I couldn't in good conscience vote for Obama because of his stance (and stated plans) on abortion. It made me sad because I wanted to share this moment with them, and be a part of it.
Excellent post. I agree that this is a great step forward in our racial healing as a country. I know that the abortion issue appears to have made a step back. But we still have the power to make change and actually do something. We can still help the poor pregnat woman who feels like she has no choice. We can adopt or foster kids without a home. We can come along side single moms who struggel every day. Voting is a one day thing. Taking actual action is much harder to do.
I pray God would crush his teeth.
RobertMuldoojp,
It's hard to see why it is a misuse of the Bible for the Church to apply statements in the Pauline epistles about governing authorities to our attitude toward our own governing authorities.
Thanks for this post, JT. I think you captured the biblical outlook exactly.
This confuses me JT. If we had an Osama Bin Ladin dictator as our ruler or say a Hitler, would God require that we give thanks for them? I'm asking this not sarcastically, but in a state of confusion. If we had Hitler as our leader and knew that he was mass killing jews in our midst, would we be called to give thanks for him? Were the apostles called to give thanks for Herod and Pilate as Jesus was being led to the cross? (Hmm, even as I type that I'm thinking "yes", even though they didn't really comprehend the good that would come from this evil at the time).
p.s. But you know what I mean...it's hard to give thanks for someone who supports the mass killing of innocent babies among other things (?)
Great great great post JT :).
Thanks Justin.
Tonight as a family we prayed for both Senator Obama and Senator McCain. But, only after I reminded the partisan group residing in my home that we need to pray for both candidates.
This will be an important time for Christian families to teach their children how to respectfully relate to those with whom they adamantly disagree.
First Robertmuldoojp
How do you take clear commands from Scripture for the church and say they are out of context and then provide a historical narrative as backup to your argument. This makes no sense.
Secondly Stan
I voted McCain this morning, so do not get me wrong I am not in Obama's camp. But I do recognize that as he is now my leader in this government I will and am commanded by Scripture to pray for and respect him. Your comment sickens me (sickens is a strong verb, but I feel it is necessary.) to the current attitude of evangelicalism. He is not our first choice;granted. But respect, pray, and do not pray something foolish that I wish no human being would suffer.
End rant. God bless my brothers, I hope this was a stern, but loving rebuke and exhortation.
Thank you Justin for rightly dividing the Word of God. These Scriptures are not out of context at all, but completely appropriate. Thank you for calling us to humility. You are honoring our Savior and His Word by reminding us to honor our authorities, even those we disagree with. We must trust the Sovereign rule of our mighty God (Ps 20:7).
We need to pray for God's mercy. Our nation has received more blessing than any of us deserve, but we may be entering a refining time, even so may Your will be done O Lord. May You do whatever is necessary to bring Yourself glory.
I am thankful for your post. I think this is the time for christians to show the world that we are about love and not about hate. That is how Christ said that they would know that we love him because of the way we treat others.
I am also praying that the Lord, who is able to do immeasurably more than we could ask or imagine, will change Barack Obama's heart about the issue of abortion before he becomes President. Will you pray with me?
I would only add that he is only our president-elect. He is one man amoung many leaders in our government. I thank God as much for checks and balances as I do for the position of any one leader. Tonight I thank God for Roberts and Alito. I pray especially for the amazing health of Ginsburg and the other liberal judges considering retirement.
Stephen Roberson,
Your comment sickens me (sickens is a strong verb, but I feel it is necessary.) to the current attitude of evangelicalism.
David's prayers are not appropriate for evangelicals?
I pray that God will destroy all his enemies. Obama and his ilk are among his enemies. That sickens you. Take it up with God.
I'm not sure I understand your sense of support for Obama now that he's won. There are some major differences between the Apostle Paul's time and Government and our democratic government. Obama stands for an idea of government that points towards godlessness (in my view). We have a representative government and who we elect represents you and me.. therefore I can't say that I honor him as my representative. I do bow to God and his rule but not Obama's. He does not represent me as I see the world (a biblical worldview)... does he? I don't know just thinking out loud... maybe you can help me out a bit:(.
Justin-
What do you think about Psalm 129? Is it speaking to our elected leaders?
Thanks for your thoughtful and Biblical perspectives.
SDG!
MD
"David's prayers are not appropriate for evangelicals?"
They are about as much use to evangelicals as they were to the Pharisees, if not interpreted through Jesus. The enemy to be destroyed is Death and Hades, and of our human enemies we are to pray "father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
I think a study on the imprecatory psalms is in order there.
You cheated me on the question Stan.
First, your question is loaded. Are some of David's prayers prescriptive for the church. Sure. Are all of David's prayers prescriptive for the church. No.
Secondly, should we not recognize that later revelation and clearer passages should hold precedence over our lives when they are available.
A basic hermeneutical principle is to interpret Scripture by Scripture. I feel if your use of Scripture is violating that law by taking clear commands and not respecting to them. That my brother must be taken up with God.
God bless.
This truly is a historical moment. Thanks for the biblical exhortations about respecting and honoring those in authority. It would be easy to justify not honoring a wicked ruler if Paul wrote those words in Romans 13 under a more righteous ruler. It should be remembered that Paul was saying "respect and honor Nero, the Christian killer."
I do find it really ironic and very saddening that the first African American president strongly supports positions that have been shown to be part of the problem in the degeneration and extinction of black culture, namely the welfare state and abortion.
Man is my soul down cast.
May the Lord open our new president's heart to the truth of Christ, and bring him to the Cross. And may he learn to seek first the kingdom of Christ and His righteousness, as we all need to do. Amen.
The Apostle Peter tells us to "honor the king", and to not despise authority, nor be presumptuous, self-willed, and not to speak evil of dignitaries, which could refer to Satan, so how much more his servants.
Surely we need to speak the truth, as Peter did, and yet without "reviling accusations before the Lord." 2 Peter 2:11
Lord use us for Thy glory. Amen.
Stan,
I think it'd be good to meditate on Ecclesiastes 3:7b. And to reread Romans 13. I believe the imprecatory psalms apply today--but let's not sweep Romans 13 under the rug.
JT
Amen, JT. We will most certainly disagree with him on many points, and must fight him on some. But I am committing tonight to pray regularly for my President.
good post and, for the most part, good comments. the america that obama will have to now lead is quite a different country than the one he looked at two years ago and said, hey - that white house gig looks like a pretty nice deal. and, sadly, our country seems to have found deeper divisions as those two years went by. but we're americans, and God shed His grace on us. we can come back together and raise the bar again for us and for the rest of the world like we've always done.
'yes, we can.'
-mr
donsands said: "May the Lord open our new president's heart to the truth of Christ, and bring him to the Cross."
I'm glad to report your praying was answered:
SEN. OBAMA/July 2008
"I let Jesus Christ into my life. I learned that my sins could be redeemed and if I placed my trust in Jesus that he could set me on a path to eternal life. When I submitted myself to his will and I dedicated myself to discovering his truth and carrying out his works, it was that newfound faith that fortified my commitment to the work I was doing in the community. Because it taught me that I could sit in church and pray all I want but I won't be fulfilling the Lord's will unless I am doing the lord's work."
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/404882.aspx
Just because he doesn't have the same political views as you doesn't mean he can't be a Christian.
I will be praying that the abortion rate dramatically drops, as he has promised to work toward. Sen. McCain would probably have fruitlessly worked with a Democratic House and Senate to pass laws against abortion.
If he is in for a full 8 years let's see how that abortion rate trends. If it does dramatically go down, you found hard and strong to keep this man from being elected.
If the rate goes up or stays around the same, your animosity may be justified.
Understanding who the leaders were whom Paul enjoined the people of his time to pray for should shut the mouths of those who believe the only prayers to be offered for President-Elect Obama are imprecatory ones.
Seriously people- show some grace, and *do*, not just hear the words of Scripture: "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness."
Paul didn't qualify this with "godly" leaders. If they had to pray for men like Nero, you are not exempt from praying for Barack Obama
Good post! Either the Bible is true or it isn't, we must pray for Obama. Remember we (Christians) have a kingdom that cannot be shaken. God is in control.
So Justin,
Was the American Revolution an ungodly act? Seems to me it would fly in the face of your simplistic application of Rom 13.
Would it have been ungodly for the German people to rise up in arms against Hitler?
What about Dietrich Bonhoeffer's resistance to the Nazis in Hitler's Germany?
I think you are the one who needs to provide a more robust thesis with regard to some of your scripture references.
We can also pray for President-elect Obama's salvation.
We can also pray that he would repent of his barbaric and ungodly beliefs concerning all means of abortion which murders 3,500+ children everyday.
We can also pray that justice and righteousness would return to our land through its political leaders.
And we must not forget that the Lord does use unrighteous leaders of governments to bring judgment upon a nation as well. Tonight's election, though historic, I fear is just that: God's judgment upon our land.
Shane
Amen!
Ah... reductio ad Hitlerum
I'm going to go ahead and invoke Godwin's Law and declare you have effectively reduced this thread to inanity by being silly enough to bring up Hitler in a conversation about praying for Barack Obama. Ridiculous.
Shane,
I'm essentially quoting Scripture here. Do you disagree with what Paul said in his letters about our leaders? None of it is incompatible with civil disobedience.
JT
As a former Christian (left the church on theological grounds about five years ago), I can remember how powerful that single issue abortion can be. That's just it though. One of my "beefs" with the evangelical church is that they have been the very Pharasises Jesus preached against. They strain a gnat and swallow a camel. They care for the debatably unborn children but ignore the poor, the destite, the fatherless and the widow.
Towards the end of the campaign we heard McCain shout time and time again "he's a socialist". Well you know what, at least Obama cares for the living. All evangelical conservatives care about are the potential lives in other people's wombs.
If evangelicals and conservative Christians fail to understand this, they will continue to find themselves sitting further and futher on the margins.
So what is the Scriptural teachings concerning governmental leaders who go against God's Word? Are we to let it go or rise up? If Obama clearly goes in opposition to God, are we, as Christians:
1) to pray for Obama? I believe we should.
2) to thank God for Obama? We can debate that in such circumstances.
3) to respect Obama? I believe that we should not if he goes against God.
4) honor Obama? In such circumstances, clearly not.
It seems that whenever a leader goes against God, he obviously does not serve God nor is a servant of God although God placed him there for a purpose (see Pharoah as an example).
Also please don't confuse the respect and honor for the Presidency with respect and honor for the man. The two are not necessarily one and the same. In fact, they should remain mutually exclusive.
That's my two cents. And incidentally, posting this and joining in on the comments is therapeutical for me.
Brian wrote:
SEN. OBAMA/July 2008
"I let Jesus Christ into my life. I learned that my sins could be redeemed and if I placed my trust in Jesus that he could set me on a path to eternal life. When I submitted myself to his will and I dedicated myself to discovering his truth and carrying out his works, it was that newfound faith that fortified my commitment to the work I was doing in the community. Because it taught me that I could sit in church and pray all I want but I won't be fulfilling the Lord's will unless I am doing the lord's work."
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/404882.aspx
Just because he doesn't have the same political views as you doesn't mean he can't be a Christian.
Just because someone claims it does not mean it is true. We are talking politicians, remember? Deception and altering their position to fit the audience comes second nature to them for the most part, especially on the national level.
Due to his documented deceptions in the past, I am unable to take Obama's word on just about anything. If he claims it's raining outside, I'm going to check myself before grabbing an umbrella.
We are unable to see what is within Obama's heart so only God knows for certain if he is saved or not. All we can do is view his words and deeds and see if they are good in light of Scripture. Thus far, I see much, if not most, of what he has said and done to not be good as taught in Scripture and in some cases, quite unChristian.
Amen to your post Mr. Taylor. I think we can be in opposition to the president's policies and still honor and respect him as we're commanded to by scripture. I would point to Martin Luther King as an example of peaceful civil disobedience. The imprecatory psalms don't stand at odds to the new testament... rather, rightfully understood they can humble us. We should be the ones smashed into rocks and destroyed. Instead we receive unmerited grace and are adopted as sons of God.
dean said: "As a former Christian...One of my "beefs" [is that] They strain a gnat and swallow a camel."
dean,
There are many Christians that feel the same way as you. Don't let your local experience turn you away from the truth. Many churches are far too wed to the idol of politics. Christ is King and the mission of the church should be to spread his gospel, not to play in politics and alienate people that aren't Republicans.
BTW, I read John Piper's Nov. 4, 2008 commentary and left some questions that came from the discussions here.
brian: I understand and agree that not all Christians are caught up in voting simply by whomever shouts, "I am pro-life" the loudest.
In fact, I found it fascinating that most people I've spoken to in this very Catholic, very conservative part of Ohio thought that McCain was against overturning Roe v. Wade. McCain even said so in one of the debates. However, on his website and in his stump speeches he talked about wanting to overturn Roe v. Wade and himself being pro-life. Strangely, that was exactly the message conservatives wanted to hear and automatically, as if almost robotically, gravitated toward him, ignoring social, political, fiscal, and all other issues.
I say this because McCain himself had never been publically very clear on the issue and had simply thrown it out there to re-win, easily enough, the evangelical votes he lost when he ran in 2000. It probably worked, but as we saw, not well enough.
My point being, how much longer do evangelicals and politicians really think it will keep working?
carl said: "We are unable to see what is within Obama's heart so only God knows for certain if he is saved or not. All we can do is view his words and deeds and see if they are good in light of Scripture. Thus far, I see much, if not most, of what he has said and done to not be good as taught in Scripture and in some cases, quite unChristian."
So if you want him to do things that are taught in Scripture, can he only be a Christian is he makes laws against adultery, outlaw Islam & Buddhism, close all businesses on Sunday, make laws against lying?
What politics are Christian? Who decides? What about Christians that think that the Iraq War is unjust, that innocent or guilty people should never be tortured?
I take him at his word. He has a clear statement of faith. I dare you to prove that the major of what he says is a lie and unchristian.
If the abortion rate is dramatically less in 4 or 8 years, I will thank God for every baby saved. Why attack his plans to reduce abortion?
Is reducing abortion evil? That's what he says he'll work to do. Why attack that? It doesn't make sense.
Above all, what brings glory to God?...recognizing His sovereignty in this election and resting in knowing that the man God predestined for the job is the man that won tonight. Although I voted for McCain, I believe in a God who knows no surprises. He has preordained our steps, including Obama's. To God be the glory. I will pray for Obama and his advisors and that the Lord will whisper the truth loudly in their ears.
I have many (reformed! *gasp!*) Christian friends who voted for Obama but we choose our friendship over our party.
JT,
I do not disagree with what Paul is saying in Scripture. I have given no indication that I do.
The question is, what is he saying. Again, you have only quoted scripture. With regard to praying, sure, we need to pray for everyone.
What do we need to pray? Many things I would say.
So, when you say we need to "thank God for Barack Obama" in what way are we to thank God? Are we to thank God that many more unborn children will probably die because of his pro-chose position?
Yes, God is Sovereign and I have a high view of it. But should we "honor and respect" a man who will legislate the murder of children created in the image of God.
I think your post would be more helpful if it where more than scripture quotations. Where is the how, the application of what you quote, the interpretation of what you quote?
Well, as a Black American, I must say I never thought I would live to see the day that a Black man would be headed to the White House...but I thank God He did let me see it!
I'm also appreciative of John McCain's very gracious concession speech. As McCain said, Barack Obama's election is, indeed, a very momentous and historic occasion.
It's sad that some believers are so downcast, and even sadder that some believers give every appearance of hating President-Elect Obama. If that's you, you truly need prayer!
Barack Obama's election could be the best thing to happen to Evangelicals. Maybe now we'll stop trying by political power to do what can only be accomplished through the Holy Spirit's power.
In the meantime, I pray that God, in His great mercy, would bless, keep and protect our President-Elect, Barack Obama.
dean said: "My point being, how much longer do evangelicals and politicians really think it will keep working?"
Yes, sad. I am very concerned that the church now seems to want to wash their hands of changing hearts through the gospel of Christ taking the punishment we deserve for our sin, defeating death and raising those that trust in him; and loving their neighbor and would prefer to elect Pastor-Presidents that take moral laws and make them civil laws for everyone.
wwdunc said: "I pray that God, in His great mercy, would bless, keep and protect our President-Elect, Barack Obama."
You and me both. Depending on how he decides to govern, I think he can do great things for this country, including reducing abortions.
If this happens, all those Obama-hating Christians should be ashamed.
JT,
You say "None of it is incompatible with civil disobedience."
This was in response to my question about the American Revolution, etc.
I would hardly characterize a rebellion as "civil disobedience".
So, please, answer all my question. Would you identify the American Revolution as simply civil disobedience?
There was more of my question you chose to ignore.
Obama is like Hitler in the since that he has a sick view of how God values life, all life, unborn or any other kind.
This post has been removed by the author.
Shane said: "Are we to thank God that many more unborn children will probably die because of his pro-chose position?"
First of all, do you believe that his policies about reducing abortions are evil? What if we try those and they are dramatically more effective than the methods employed by Conservatives?
Plus, I think that Sen. McCain would have had a higher chance of getting us into another war. Why can't Christians take innocent lives in war (especially unjust wars) into account? Or those that die because they didn't have health insurance?
Brian wrote:
I take him at his word. He has a clear statement of faith. I dare you to prove that the major of what he says is a lie and unchristian.
You take the word of a man who has clearly lied throughout this campaign as well as before it? You take a man who has contradicted himself on key issues before, and during this campaign? You take the word of a man who voted against legislation that would have given protection to babies that survived botched abortions?
Again, a statement of faith doesn't necessarily make it true nor is evidence of one's salvation. Jim Jones had a "clear statement of faith." Would you have taken Jim Jones at his word when he would have told you, "The Kool-Aid isn't going to harm you." David Koresh had a "clear statement of faith." Would you have taken Koresh's word when he would have told you, "The FBI is our enemy."
Brian, did you take Obama's word that he's not going to raise taxes? Brian, did you take Obama's word when he made his public financing pledge? Did you take Obama's word when he claimed his parents got together "because of what happened in Selma" in 1965 even though Obama was born in 1961? Did you take Obama's word that he didn't have a clue that Ayers was a terrorist? Did you take Obama's word that he never knew Reverend Wright preached bigotry and hate even though Obama claimed in interviews before he ran for President that he attended church regularly for 20 years there and it is well documented that Wright preached such hateful rhetoric and some serious unBiblical teachings during that time (even selling video copies of those sermons in the lobby of the church)? Brian, are you just that gullible?
Brian, how can you take the word of a man who has lied so much? Lied about his positions...about his church...about his relations...about just about everything he's brought up. You want evidence? Good gravy man, check out all the blogs and websites that have been documenting them all along!
Brian, when you can show me that voting against legislation that would have protected babies that survived botched abortions is not "unchristian" (supported by Scripture) get back with me. When you can show me Scriptural support that lying is not "unchristian" then get back with me. I understand we are all sinners and no one is perfect but frankly, Brian, I see absolutely no evidence of Obama (or pretty much any politician on a federal level) who is willing and/or able to forgo deceptions if political desires are in jeopardy.
Justin,
What does it mean to respect and honor a man who effects genocide? What does this mean for Barth, Bonhoeffer, and Niemoller?
Brian, keep in mind that Obama endorses partial birth abortions. From an article by Michael Gersom of the Washington Post:
Obama's record on abortion is extreme. He opposed the ban on partial-birth abortion -- a practice a fellow Democrat, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, once called "too close to infanticide." Obama strongly criticized the Supreme Court decision upholding the partial-birth ban. In the Illinois state Senate, he opposed a bill similar to the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, which prevents the killing of infants mistakenly left alive by abortion. And now Obama has oddly claimed that he would not want his daughters to be "punished with a baby" because of a crisis pregnancy -- hardly a welcoming attitude toward new life.
JT -- thank you for this respectful and helpful post.
Stan McC: your post about "crushing teeth" is vile. Why not pray for God to open his eyes, to change his heart, to use him? That you would jump to a teeth-crushing prayer, in response to JT's biblical post, is troubling. You constantly rail against abortion in your comments (and hatred of abortion is admirable), but it sure seems to me that you have murder in your own heart. Don't think of yourself as a great hero for life if you have death in your heart. Go to the cross, brother.
I must sleep but I must respond to Carl's comment. It's amazing that even after he's elected lies told about Obama during the campaign persist.
Anyway, Obama supported no such bill and that is not his stance on abortion. Please read the facts here: http://fightthesmears.com/articles/15/wildaccusations
Or if you don't trust Obama's site, read it on Snopes (too tired to fetch link)
And why is it that evangelicals seem to think it's ok to bear false witness to forward their "pro-life" cause?
Matthew 7:15-20
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Sorry, folks and all you Obama supporters, but I feel the description above applies to Obama in regards to an outward appearance of a sheep but an inward reality of a ferocious wolf. Why? Because Obama has produced a lot of bad fruit in his political life.
I also feel the following applies as well:
Matthew 10:16
"I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."
Dean, http://fightthesmears.com/ is a pro-Obama hack site that has already been shown to be dishonest in of itself. The legislation that is specifically mentioned by myself, Michael Gersom and many others is indeed true and documented.
We've already had these abortion discussions before. I know all about the issue and I care deeply:
http://theologica.blogspot.com/2008/06/obama-and-reduction-of-abortion-in.html
I just think that it's sad that I'm not allowed to prioritize issues of life differently or I get branded a baby killer.
Carl, obviously, you've read one side of the stories and hated him from day one. I look at all the big issues and try to decide who is best for the country.
He doesn't have the power to raise taxes, but I think he would increase taxes on higher income people if he had the power. I hate conservatives' position about never raising taxes anyway. He did go back on his word about public financing. I don't think he knew about Ayers's past. I don't care about getting dates mixed up. I feel strongly about keeping what happens in the church out of politics -- it will come back and bite us later if we don't speak against it now.
You said: "I see absolutely no evidence of Obama (or pretty much any politician on a federal level) who is willing and/or able to forgo deceptions"
Since all politicians lie, then, you will never vote for anyone anyway, just attack others for voting.
Let me vote my conscience. The Bible clearly speaks against abortion, but it does say how to stop it.
Dean, furthermore, FactCheck.org also shows that Obama opposed the legislation I, Gersom and many others mention. It is indeed documented. Obama did, in fact, oppose Illinois legislation in 2001, 2002 and 2003 that would have defined any aborted fetus that showed signs of life as a "born alive infant" entitled to legal protection. If "fightthesmears" is denying this then they are in opposition to the Illinois congressional record.
In regards to the fightthesmears pro-Obama site I suggest you read the following:
http://www.newsmax.com/lowell_ponte/obama_smears_fact_check/2008/10/20/142379.html
So fightthesmears is not a reliable site on truth concerning Barack Obama but is merely another biased, pro-Obama project. There are more documentations showing the not-so-truthful nature of fightthesmears.
Brian, I strongly object and am insulted when you wrote the following:
"Carl, obviously, you've read one side of the stories and hated him from day one."
So Brian, I don't think God gave you the divine ability to look within another man's heart so please do go assuming (wrongly) that someone hates another. This is a false accusation with no basis in fact. You owe me an apology.
Furthermore when you wrote:
"I look at all the big issues and try to decide who is best for the country."
you are implying that: a) I haven't looked at the big issues (I actually have) and I don't care what is best for the country (I do care and Obama is clearly NOT the best for this country).
The fact of the matter is that I have researched both McCain and Obama quite extensively via many sources, not just "one side" as you erroneously stated. You are making this false assumption based on emotion rather than objectivity.
You stated clearly that you took Obama's word in regards to his "clear statement of faith" when in doing so you show a naivette in trusting someone who has routinely lied in this campaign. The abortion legislation I brought up is merely one of many example of Obama's deceptions. Now to bring it back to the Bible, where is it taught that a statement of faith is always to be taken as sincere especially when the fruit produced by the person making the statement is bad?
Hmmm...that Newsmax report URL was apparently too long so I converted it to a TinyURL
http://tinyurl.com/57hofv
Carl wrote: "I don't think God gave you the divine ability to look within another man's heart so please do go assuming (wrongly) that someone hates another."
Granted. My apologies for stepping outside of the known facts. My assumption was based on your arguments as to why Obama is a bad man.
However, you don't have the divine ability to look into Obama's heart either. Saying that he lies all the time is quite an extreme exaggeration and distortion.
You said: "you are implying that: a) I haven't looked at the big issues (I actually have) and I don't care what is best for the country (I do care and Obama is clearly NOT the best for this country)."
I did not mean to imply this, nor did I mean it. I mean that I don't think there are absolute truths in American politics, like in the heavenly sphere. I meant that I could look at the issues and come to a different conclusion that another Christian. I respect a Christian voting for McCain, but I think that those voting for Obama for thought-through reasons shouldn't be attacked as bad Christians. You already have my respect for your vote -- I want yours.
Once again, there are not clear precepts in the Bible as to how a politician should govern in a democratic republic. The Bible is clear as to how an individual Christian should live.
Apology accepted, Brian. Thank you.
Brian, please re-read what you just wrote:
"My assumption was based on your arguments as to why Obama is a bad man."
To clarify: I'm not making any arguments as to why Obama is a bad man. I am however making arguments that Obama is: an untrustworthy man, a dishonest man, a typical politician, a man that one should take his word with only a grain of salt, a man whose placed political ambition over honesty and several other things but is he a bad man? Brian, according to the Bible we are ALL bad so the answer is yes, he is a bad man. And according to Scripture, I am a bad man, you are a bad man and we are all bad. So why argue a point that Scripturally has already been made?
You also wrote:
However, you don't have the divine ability to look into Obama's heart either. Saying that he lies all the time is quite an extreme exaggeration and distortion.
I never claimed that I knew what was within his heart, however I can see and read what he has done and said and from that Scripture teaches we are to see if such fruit is good or bad. I contend that much of Obama's fruit, especially in regards to his campaign is bad. Did I said he "lies all the time"? I don't believe I made any such overgeneralization. Do I believe he lies a lot and easily? Yes. And it's well documented.
You also wrote:
but I think that those voting for Obama for thought-through reasons shouldn't be attacked as bad Christians
I want to make this absolutely clear (and incidentally I am NOT saying that in a Richard Nixon voice -- although I do a pretty good Nixon impersonation): I am not attacking nor accusing anyone here of being a bad Christian, including Obama.
Whether Obama is or isn't a Christian is known for certain only by God. I just have a hard time taking Obama's word for anything since he has a long and well-documented history of deception for political and personal purposes. I feel the same about Bill Clinton as well. I cannot see anyone making a sound argument that either man is honest and trustworthy based upon their own words that have been documented to have been so grossly dishonest. I admit that most all politicans lie. Apparently it's part of the game, but there are some that take it so far as to be ridiculous. I consider Barack Obama to be one. I also consider the same concerning Bill & Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Jack Murtha, Richard Nixon, Ted Kennedy and several others.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. You support and trust Barack Obama. I don't. I can and will respect and honor the office of the President of the United States no matter who it may be, but I have trouble respecting and honoring Barack Obama, the man, when he has given me nothing thus far deserving any honor nor respect.
I just have a hard time taking Obama's word for anything since he has a long and well-documented history of deception for political and personal purposes.
The well worn path of rumour mongering begins when a person wants people to believe that his political opponent "has a long and well documented history of deception for political and personal purposes".
I, too, have spent time looking at both and I think your study of Obama is dead wrong. I think you've fallen into the trap of passing along destructive rumour without fact-checking because it fits into your preconception that Obama cannot be trusted.
The rumour mongers did the same thing with John Kerry, whose service in Vietnam was exemplary. They did it to Al Gore and to Bill Clinton and, of course, they did it to Dukakis in 1988 when they falsely claimed that he was soft on crime.
No politician is exempt from the claim that they are in it for self-benefit. However there are degrees to which this is true.
All this goes back to Lee Atwater and his protege Karl Rove. Begin the rumours and watch them cycle through.
BTW - I'm not saying this because I think Obama is the Messiah. He's obviously not and although I'm personally happy he has been elected president I know he will not meet my expectations.
All I'm trying to point out is that rumour mongering has destroyed reasonable political discourse. Here's a good example of someone who voted for McCain based upon research and reasonable thinking. Even though I disagree with him it was his thoughtful attitude that struck me.
I am sitting here in the middle of the night reflecting on the election and the various articles I have seen. I've never been to this site before, and with my limited online exposure, I might not see it ever again; however, I have found myself chuckling at some things. I'd like to address the ongoing thread between Brian and Carl because not only does it address my views of the original article but it also addresses their dialogue. You both are impressive to me. I am aging somewhat, and I read a lot of comments from Christians that smack of double standards, such as when one person rebukes another person for unloving words with the same type of words. Yikes! Yet I see such Christian character and integrity in the two of you based on the small snippet of your life seen in this dialogue. I agree with Carl completely about Jesus' admonition to examine the fruit of people when we make assessments, and although we cannot judge another person's eternal soul, we are instructed by Paul in 1 Cor. 5 to judge those within the body of Christ for purposes of redemption and reconciliation. Most of the Christians I have known over the years in ministry seem to be unaware of this instruction. I also believe we are called to seek justice and righteousness in the broader arena of the world while loving others. I agree with Carl and others that there is a fundamental difference in respecting the office and the man, and there is also validity to someone's post about Hitler and the Revolutionary War, despite sarcastic denunciations. It is easy to see that Obama was not being called Hitler and that the principles of time and necessity for intervention were being questioned. It is also one thing to thank God for all things because He makes all things work for good and another to thank God for the specific wrong or the specific character or traits of a man or woman who may be ungodly. I am aware that certain principles exist, and one of those is that "rumors" can more readily be disregarded when they are occasional and appear to be unsubstantiated; however, when a pattern begins to follow and there are substantiated cases, then it calls a person's character into question. In politics, there are undoubtedly many rumors spread, but as the Bible teaches, truth will find you out. In my judgment, this is true for Obama--as well as many others of us at different times. My prayer is that God will change him, not that I will deny the obvious. I admire Brian for the apology he gave to Carl because it encourages me, and I'm sure it encourages others as well. While I disagree with the selection of a president who supports abortion and same-sex marriage, I utterly respect your decision, Brian. While I do not agree with your line of reasoning, it has merit since it involves reasoning. I believe you have a good heart--both of you! May we all follow your example. God bless you both for being an example to us all!
as of today, november 5th, 2008, we all need to start heeding some STOP signs:
1 - we need to STOP judging one another's salvation.
2 - we need to STOP coming up with justifications why we think we can continue to ignore #1, because the bottom line is this: none of us is God.
3 - we need to STOP pretending that a vote every four years accomplishes anything in 'ending the slaughter' or 'protecting the innocent'; wearing the pro-life lapel pin means walking the walk daily using the legal means available to change the law.
4 - we need to STOP believing the 'rightness' of our position means we need not worry about being gracious in our debate.
5 - we need to STOP passing on 'information' of questionable merit and recognize it for the scripture-prohibited gossip that it is.
6 - we need to STOP believing that anything we read on the internet or receive in an email isn't automatically of questionable merit.
7 - we need to STOP using the phrase 'clearly proves', because whatever was just written about what is to follow, doesn't.
8 - we need to STOP hiding behind the phlimsy robes of the pharisees, proof-texting scripture to sling i-am-only-pointing-out-what-the-bible-says arrows at others.
9 - we need to STOP giving the rest of america ample reasons to think the church is just a bunch of bickering legalistic hypocrites.
10 - we need to STOP thinking our government can run just fine without our direct, personal involvement, even to the point of running for elected office.
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Thanks for the very biblical summation. I am very disappointed in the outcome from a human standpoint--but this is where belief in the sovereignty of God provides a huge comfort.
brian,
From what I've seen, and read of Obama's faith, it is nominal.
He believes God is with him through Jesus, and especially the sermon on the mount Jesus.
Jesus isn't THE way to heaven, but a way.
My soul is cast down. This is a man who intends to fight for the rights of women to be able to kill the baby in their wombs like no one else ever has.
He is a liberal further left than Hillary, who voted yes to The Born Alive Act, as did all the Senators, except Obama.
Having said all that, I shall continue to pray for him, and his family.
SpudTooley---
Amen to your stop signs.
I cannot begin to participate in this debate, but enjoy the blog and comments. We have attended JPs church for 11 years and grown mightily in our spiritual lives.
I include a portion of my father's letter to his congregation in Wisconsin...
"First, the Lord's role: "Praise be to the Name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are His. He changes times and seasons. He sets up kings and deposes them." Daniel 2:20-21
Second, the responsibility of those in authority, be they a king, or president, or lawmaker, or judge: "Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for His wrath can flare up in a moment." Psalm 2:10-12
Finally, the admonition to us: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1
So, if I wake up this Wednesday and John McCain is president-elect, what will I do? Learn the truth. Live the truth. Liberate others through the truth. If I wake up this Wednesday and Barak Obama is president-elect, what will I do? Learn the truth. Live the truth. Liberate others through the truth.
No matter who occupies the Oval Office, the Lord is still on His throne."
Great thoughts, Justin. I have reflected on them add added some of my own reflections to them on my blog. You can read more at the Undivided Blog.
I appreciate your humility and desire to honor the president elect, even when you do not agree with some of his positions.
The imprecatory psalms came up earlier in the posts. Those interested in them may want to give this book a read:
"War Psalms of the Prince of Peace: Lessons from the Imprecatory Psalms" by James Adams
While I am not hopeful for Obama's leadership and its influence on the USA, I can see this election from a few more angles than the immediate fight for the unborn.
1. Obama's victory gives hope for those engaged in the continued battle for the unborn. How is that?
It took over a hundred and fifty years to move from the emancipation proclamation to electing an African american as president. From the year of my birth in 1955 it was impossible to consider the presence of a bi-racial President. Many fought for this against great odds.
Let's press on and not lose hope. He may be radical in his views of abortion, but his election is a sign of the change that can take place through political processes.
It is a remarkable quality of this republic -- that such processes can happen at all, slavery can be abolished, women can be given the right to vote, free speech can be guaranteed, -- and someday, the legalized murder of the unborn can be made illegal.
2. This is not a landslide. The most unpopular president in history is in office and people voted against him. The economy is on the edge of a prolonged recession, and people voted for change. A war in Iraq is unpopular.
Even at that, Obama took only 52% of the vote. That would not be a landslide. It is certainly not a mandate. It would barely be encouraging. The Dems gained seats in the Congress, but not in a way that indicates they have a mandate.
I would like someone, preferably JT, to answer a question posed earlier. What is our responsibility regarding Rom. 13:1 when we believe our own leaders are sponsoring, or attempting to expand (through the freedom of choice act) genocide?
If you do not like the premise as it applies to the U.S. then imagine another country like Darfur or Bosnia or Jewish Christians under Hitler and respond more generically.
The most relevant example is probably the early Christian martyrs who had the genocide levied against them. I'm sure there are some examples from the various captivities. We could certainly think about the slave trade and the Christians who stood by and watched. In all of these examples it seems there were some that fit nicely into Romans 13 and some who took a more oppositional stance like Elijah's disobedience to Jezebel..Anyway, I would appreciate comments to the general question, How are we supposed to act when we feel our own government support the expansion of genocide given biblical examples and admonitions from Romans 13?
justin, thank you for this! we grieve, and yet, we know HE is sovereign. just another sign, that the end nears.
Thought these glorious words from Thomas Cranmer, in The Book of Common Prayer, might help us in praying for our nation:
"ALMIGHTY God, who hast given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of thy favour. Bless us with industry, prosperity, learning, and purity of life. Save us from discord and violence, and from pride and arrogancy. Preserve us from public calamities, pestilence, and famine; from war, privy conspiracy, and rebellion; and especially from national sins and corruption. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitudes brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues. Endue with wisdom those in authority, that justice and peace may prevail. Make us strong and great in the fear of God, and in the love of righteousness, that, blessed of thee, we may be a blessing to all people. In prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in trouble suffer not our trust in thee to fail; all which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."
www.desiringgod.org
Piper had a very good sermon on Psalm 69 and how impreccatory Psalms are applicable today. He treats the curses and judgments seriously as the word of God and expressions of God's justice and wrath against sin, and yet, he shows us how we are to apply these things for the church today.
"The main thing to say is that we do not take the imprecations as encouragements or incentives to curse our enemies. In fact, in Paul’s mind the psalm takes us in the exact opposite direction. Paul quotes the psalm in Romans 15:3 to encourage us to deny ourselves rather than to gratify the lust for revenge. “Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, ‘The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.’” In other words, forebear, forgive.
But this is not because there is no wrath, no punishment, no judgment in Psalm 69. It is precisely because there is judgment. And it is not our business to execute. The fact that God will do it and that it is right for him to do it is the very means by which we are able to follow Jesus in suffering for the sake of others who have wronged us:
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” (Romans 12:19-21)
The burning coals will be purifying if there is repentance, and punishment if there is not. God will decide. We will approve. But until that day of judgment, we follow the words of the Anointed King: “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. . . . You will be sons of the Most High” (Luke 6:27–29, 35)." (excerpt at the end of Piper's sermon)
Jesus did seem to modify their application to us today in the church - Matthew 5:44-48
"You have heard it said, "Love your neighbor" and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. . . "
Those good works and how we respond to our enemies don't make us justified or get us saved; but they prove that we are truly children of God.
The world is watching how we (Conservative Evangelicals; and the non-Reformed are also watching us Reformed on our spirit and attitude) respond to this defeat of our principles and issues; let us glorify God by witnessing and praying and being gracious. McCain's gracious response was exemplary and honorable.
Great post JT. May God humble us all.
Ken said: "The world is watching how we (Conservative Evangelicals; and the non-Reformed are also watching us Reformed on our spirit and attitude) respond to this defeat of our principles and issues; let us glorify God by witnessing and praying and being gracious. McCain's gracious response was exemplary and honorable."
Great, great statement, I really think you are right. I hope we can live up to our principals.
I didn't like much of Sen. McCain's policies, but I *deeply* respect a man that would give a concession speech like he did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bss6lTP8BJ8
Sen. McCain's disgust and frustration with his supporters that disrespect P-E Obama is a great way to lead the country forward. Also, thank you Sen. McCain for keeping Rev. Wright out of the attacks.
Mike Rucker,
As with so many of your posts that I have read, your "STOP signs" contain much that is well worth heeding for Christians-- I would even say, much that is *important* for us to heed. I do have some caveats though (you
knew that was coming, right?). :-)
First, while Christians should be very careful about making absolute statements regarding one another's salvation, Scripture *does,* within limits, call us to "judge" each other in the church (1 Corinthians 5:9-12, ESV). You are obviously correct that we are not God and do not have His absolute knowledge of another person's spiritual state in relation to Him.
However, Christians are called in Scripture to expel from their local churches the obviously "wicked" people who *claim* to be brothers and sisters in Christ (again, 1 Corinthians 5:9-12, ESV). Is "wicked" always simply a matter of external behavior in the Bible? I would contend not, due to Scripture's repeated emphasis on the heart, and also because in addition to the sexually immoral, the covetous, and swindlers, the 1 Corinthians passage also mentions "idolaters." If a person embraces and worships a God who is substantially different than the God who is clearly revealed in Scripture, is that person not an idolater?
Here we come to the problem of STOP sign #7 though, because at least from the phrasing therein, you seem to think that not much is actually "clearly revealed" in Scripture. With such a presupposition though, if one logically follows out its implications, how can one really even discuss the Bible, its teachings, and the order of importance of those teachings?
STOP sign #3 is simply factually incorrect, and both MCain and Obama recognized it during the final Presidential debate, during which the subject of Supreme Court judges was mentioned. The make-up of the Supreme Court, as far as the individual judges' legal and moral understandings, has a *huge* bearing on the abortion issue. President Bush, Jr. appointed two pro-life judges to the SC, and this action *directly helped* to bring about the outlawing of partial-birth abortion.
Now, under Obama, we may well see the pro-life gains on the SC neutralized with the appointment of pro-choice judges. It is very saddening to me that so many evangelicals were seemingly convinced, in this election, that work through the legal system has done little to nothing for the pro-life cause. This assertion on the part of many people is simply not true. If more people had *understood, historically speaking,* that it is not true, we might have seen a different outcome in this election (humanly speaking, from our finite viewpoint).
Shane,
Yes, the American Revolution was an act of hostility toward God's appointed authority.
No, Bonhoeffer's opposition to the evil of Hitler was not.
You know well that Christians have the obligation to resist the rule of men when it runs counter to God's law. Taxation without representation has nothing to do with God's law while executing people based on their race does. The two situations are not comparable.
If President-elect Obama begins requiring Christians to abort their unborn children or some other ungodly behavior then civil disobedience will be required on our part. Until such time we are to pray for him and his administration, work through whatever legal means are at our disposal to reduce the incidence of abortion, and cease from ungodly gossip and slander.
SDG
Brittany,
According to the Biblical admonitions and principles outlined in this post, we are to pray for our leaders and respect them, even when we truly believe that they are in grave error. However, we are also told in Scripture that when the Bible's commands and admonitions clearly conflict with those of man, we are to "obey God rather than man" (Acts 5:27-29, ESV). Even in these cases though, we can and should still sincerely pray for our leaders. Through how we conduct ourselves (with meekness and love), I think we can also make it clear that our obedience to God, rather than man, is not ultimately due to a *disrespect* for our leaders.
Dawg said: "the American Revolution was an act of hostility toward God's appointed authority. "
There's a big distinction here that I'm not reading. The church was not the primary instrument of the revolution, it was a civil movements started from the people and into their colonial representatives. Read the Declaration of Independence, it is much more than taxes; rather the view of human rights being violated.
The question, in my opinion, would be whether "the church" should have stated an opinion on the matter. In my opinion, no. Individual Christians could have differed on the rightness of the revolution at the time for many different reasons.
If it was not Washington's army, but the Presbyterian Church that won the revolution, my opinion would be the opposite.
Mark L,
I don't know who you are as your profile is unavailable.
That being said, your comment was most stimulating (for further thought) and encouraging.
christopher lake - thanks for the thoughts, and for sharing them in a way that honors #4 of my list... :)
my #7 about 'clearly proves' wasn't so much addressed at scripture, though i think our ability to STILL argue things that have been argued about for more than a thousand years would say that few things in scripture are ever 'clearly proven' there, either.
as for stop sign #3 and abortion: constitutional law, in the end, isn't MADE by the judicial branch. if laws are sufficiently nebulous to allow judges to effectively 'make' law, then the problem lies not in the makeup of the court, but in the law. the avenues to prohibit abortion are in the legislative process, not in the appointment of supreme court judges. a future president will change the makeup of the court again one way or the other regardless of who got elected this time. throwing the issue to fifty different states isn't going to provide a solution, either. the vote for mccain as a vote of 'conscience' to 'protect the unborn' in the end looks like little more than pilate washing his hands if this is the only means you see to fix the problem.
but good thoughts, fairly spoken. and flattery will get you everywhere in my book...
I also am very sad in the outcome of the election. It is always grievous to see an immoral ruler rise to power.
I do believe, however, that Christ is: "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." - Col. 1:15-17
All that to say...pray for America...there are many who need Christ as their Savior...and she has yet to see God's judgment.
I seem to remember a prayer that would work quote well.
Matt. 6:9 Pray then like this:
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.*
Matt. 6:10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,*
on earth as it is in heaven.
Matt. 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread,*
Matt. 6:12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Matt. 6:13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.*
It is always grievous to see an immoral ruler rise to power.
perhaps it's just as grievous to see Christians make such sweeping statements about people they've never even met, or attach such a condemning label as 'immoral ruler' on someone who has yet to even step into the office.
we can do better than this, people.
-mr
Mike Rucker,
Thanks for the reply. I see your point about #7 and the thousands of years of arguing over different understandings of certain things in Scripture. However, isn't it possible that at least *some* of the different "understandings" might be due to sin-- our not actually *wanting* to see what is clearly there in Scripture?
About #3, if the appointment of Supreme Court judges has no real bearing on the legislative process to prohibit abortion, why did Bush's appointment of two pro-life judges to the SC result in partial-birth abortion being outlawed (finally)?
I agree with you that Christians should not vote for pro-life politicians *to the exclusion of* seeking other answers to the horror of abortion. I am deeply blessed to be a member of a theologically Reformed, non-denominational church in which adoption is encouraged as an important *part* of the Christian answer to abortion. The music leader of the church is actually proposing to the elders that an adoption ministry be started within the church. Go, Zach! :-) http://www.desertspringschurch.org/
Spud Tooley,
I have a feeling that if we elected David Dukes to the Presidency you would have no problem calling him an immoral ruler due to his hatred of African Americans that has been documented. I have no problem calling a man who advociates removing reasonable restrictions on abortions an immoral and ungodly ruler, regardless of personal piety, church attendance, or theology. People who specifically advocate immoral policies, whether it be abortion, segregation, slavery, corporate greed, stealing of Indian lands, or purposely infecting them with smallpox can rightly be called immoral rulers regardless of the piety evident in other areas of their lives.
If I remember Kings and Samuel correctly God approved of the actions of some of the Kings while still calling them wicked for refusing to tear down the Ashteroth
thank you for this.
One Salient Oversight wrote:
The well worn path of rumour mongering begins when a person wants people to believe that his political opponent "has a long and well documented history of deception for political and personal purposes".
I, too, have spent time looking at both and I think your study of Obama is dead wrong. I think you've fallen into the trap of passing along destructive rumour without fact-checking because it fits into your preconception that Obama cannot be trusted.
Actually OSO, Obama does have a long and WELL documented history of deception. Whether you choose to believe this fact or not. I've already cited a few specific examples. It's not rumormongering when it is well documented. So I don't put much stock in your claim that you "have spent time looking at both" if you conclude Obama didn't lie on the points I and others have raised which has indeed been documented.
Furthermore, like has been done before, you have erred by claiming I have "fallen into the trap of passing along destructive rumour without fact-checking because it fits into your preconception that Obama cannot be trusted" when the facts of the matter is that I did some extensive fact checking before Obama won the Dem. primary and also during the campaign in order to separate the facts from the rumors and it still points to the logical and factual conclusion that Obama cannot be trusted. There were no preconceptions.
Finally (at least regarding your comments), we will have to agree to disagree. I don't trust Obama (and frankly I don't trust McCain either -- my vote was more of a "lesser of two evils" parallel). You have made up your mind on the individuals you have named and it seems that in your mind Obama, Clinton, Kerry, Dukakis, etc. are extremely trustworthy and all that has been said about them are all mere rumors. If I had the time, energy, and a proper place, I would be able to refute you on those individuals and your claims thereof with thorough documentation (citing sources in a scholarly manner).
Your characterization of me is offbase, just as Brian's was before he apologized but I've run into that before. No biggie. We are just going to have to agree to disagree, move on and make the best of things to come.
Might I suggest a book that along with the Bible is helpful in times like these and in discussions like these?
"The Grace Awakening" by Charles Swindoll
Due to some of the rather intense discussions ongoing here, I'm rereading some of it along with referenced Scripture to help me.
Even with that said, I'd like to add that just for overall Christian living, it's a book I highly recommend.
Brittany wrote:
I have a feeling that if we elected David Dukes to the Presidency you would have no problem calling him an immoral ruler due to his hatred of African Americans that has been documented.
YIKES! Now that is an awful thought. Sort of along the lines of if Louis Farakhan or Malak Shabazz was somehow elected POTUS in some weird nightmare.
Man, I gotta get some "mind soap" to wash those images out. :-)
isn't it possible that at least *some* of the different "understandings" might be due to sin-- our not actually *wanting* to see what is clearly there in Scripture?
perhaps, but again - whose the judge? you're still treading that line of saying that someone who is being faithful to what they see in Jesus and in scripture is, in essence, evil, and that's exactly the judgment we need to avoid.
why did Bush's appointment of two pro-life judges to the SC result in partial-birth abortion being outlawed (finally)?
if reducing the number of abortions is the only goal you're looking for, the church can go out and do what the church is supposed to do - change people's hearts - and reduce the number. if you're looking for a 'best' solution, and admitting that 'some' abortions are ok, then why have any restrictions? if it's a crime, make it a crime; if it's not, make it legal and work to minimize the number that are performed.
it's like our approach to war: if we're going to go to war, then by george (poor pun) let's go to war and get the thing done as quickly as possible. don't dance around the edges and pretend that 'a little better' is accomplishing anything while people continue to die and the situation is made worse for the living.
your comment on adoption is spot on. that, i feel, is where the church should focus if it isn't going to work daily through the legislative means to get the constitutional amendment passed. anything else is just saying well, i've done enough, and i don't need to feel guilty in spite of what i see going on.
our thinking that we've been doing 'enough' is why the country is in the shape it's in - because only in hindsight is it clear that 'enough' simply wasn't. that's why we had record turnout and interest in this election - as a nation we realized we had to step up and start being a little more aware of what's going on in washington, at the united nations, in the pentagon, on wall street, and in the offices of those running companies to which we've handed off the job of guarding our savings, our retirement accounts, our college funds, and the jobs we either have or hope to get.
let's keep up the good work.
WWdunc,
As a white Southerner who grew up during the 60s, and whose ancestors owned slaves and fought for the CSA:
Amen brother! Preach on!
Because He lives,
John Fariss
Thank you Justin Taylor, John Fariss, wwdunc and others,
Who use gracious words to heal and build up!
Brittany wrote: "If I remember Kings and Samuel correctly God approved of the actions of some of the Kings while still calling them wicked for refusing to tear down the Ashteroth"
If your you follow your logic, we should be electing only Christians to any public office, pressure them to abolish all immorality in the land: burn the adult store, shut down the adult websites, make fornication and adultery illegal.
This country is not God's covenant land. The invisible church (actually believers) is God's covenant people that must tear down the Ashteroth in the church, not the world.
Brian,
So if I follow your logic William Wilberforce and the abolitionists were wrong for trying to force their view of Africans created in the image of God on the slave-owning and slave trading public, and the civil rights leaders of the 60's that found the foundation of their movement in the will of God were also guilty of trying to force their religion on the people. They should have just preached the gospel until racists got converted and voluntarily let them into their schools and onto their buses.
Obama may be a Christian and he may live a more pious life than anyone on this website, but the fact that he supports the largest genocide in world history does in fact make him wicked, even if he thinks he is in the bounds of God's will because of "women's rights" the people who brought about the spanish inquisition, holocaust, cambodian death camps, persecution of Christians in Rome, and 9/11 all thought they were within God's (or their preferred moral authority) regulations.
Brian,
I apologize in advance for my tone, just imagine that I am trying to respond graciously.
Mike Rucker,
Due to our sin, as fallen human beings, and also due to our "finite-ness," as people who, at our best, have limited understanding of eternal things, we humans will always have disagreements about what is "clearly revealed" in Scripture.
Your solution, though, which seems to start out with epistemological humility but ends up in postmodern skepticism about almost *anything* being Biblically clear, is not really a solution. It's more of a throwing one's hands up in the air and then seemingly *judging* (perhaps unwittingly) anyone who claims that there actually are many clearly revealed things in Scripture and that there are *implications* to these things being clearly revealed. We might have to agree to disagree on this one.
I do not think that we should settle for the "best that we can do" on "limiting" abortions. I am for a constitutional amendment to ban all abortions (or, to use a less "anti-septic" term than abortions, the slaughtering of unborn babies due to their temporary location-- within the womb). I am also for churches, and individual Christians *in* those churches, helping pregnant unmarried women whose boyfriends have "fled the scene," and helping married women whose husbands might be pressuring them to have abortions. I am also for churches helping to a build a Christian culture of adoption, as part of loving the unborn and showing Christ's love to an often cold and indifferent world.
Fighting the legal battle against abortion, and working to end abortion in other ways, should not be an "either/or" proposition. It's a "both/and" matter.
I do not have time to read ALL comments but want to say that Obama was the POINT MAN to oppose the born alive bill in Ill. legislature not once but 2x. He heard the testimonies of nurses talking about aborted babies born alive and left in soiled linen closets to die. He heard it and fought tooth and nail to oppose giving these babies any medical care. If anyone is putting out rumors, it is the Obama camp trying to downplay his role in all of that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z65F0z-UKmk
How do I know all of this is true? A friend of mine was very active in pro life crisis pregnancy centers in Ill. during this time and sat through the hearings. Those involved knew Obama was the point man for opposing the bill. He was sent to get the votes against giving these babies medical care.
That is the character of the man we have elected. That he made this his mission to oppose. Yes, I will certainly pray for him. He was a professing Christian at the time attending Wright's church. Wright was on the board of the Hospitals parent company.
First to Spud Tooley: I hope you understand that we are not saying that God is wrong for raising up Obama as America's President. Only that YES Obama IS a wicked/immoral man because he supports wicked/immoral things. This is NOT judgmental. This is fact that he himself testifies (at least the part about supporting abortion/homosexuality).
When a man or woman refuses to hold true to the Word of the Lord, and accepts the corruption of the world, they are wicked in the eyes of the Lord. This is not a judgmental statement on our part as Christians, but this is the truth revealed about Obama through the "x-ray" of Scripture.
And to Brittany...you are on the right track...I understand what you are trying to say. ;)
Grace be with all of you.
Only that YES Obama IS a wicked/immoral man because he supports wicked/immoral things. This is NOT judgmental.
i think the problem is the term 'wicked'.
if we view ourselves through 'the lens of scripture,' then we are all 'wicked men', and the comment does not in any way make any sense.
if, because of our status as Christians, we are no longer seen by God as 'wicked', then neither should we apply that label to someone who professes Christ, regardless of the judgments we want to make about his salvation.
if, after salvation, we all continue to have areas of our life that need focus to bring them into alignment with what we feel God's standards are, then we are not 'wicked', only sinners saved by grace still in the process of working out our salvation.
if obama is a brother in your church with known sin in your eyes, then by all means confront him.
if, instead, you're just going to post things about a fellow Christian on a blog, perhaps that is behavior that needs to be looked at as well; perhaps even someone here who is in your local church can point it out to you.
if there are policies we do not like in our presidential candidates or in our elected leaders, we can point them out without calling the individual 'wicked'.
and, finally, if there are logs in our own eyes, perhaps it's more appropriate to look at them first, or at least use grace in how we point out the specks in other's.
-mr
In so many of the comments here, there seems to be the belief that the only politician that Christians can support is an outwardly moral Christian. Plus, for them to be acceptable, they must use the Bible to govern.
Many of you see President Elect Obama as not fitting this profile, so you dislike/hate him.
Let me continue to try to reiterate this point: do you want a president that will try to put the Biblical moral law into the civil law? Is that your ultimate goal?
I don't believe that a president should push to make adultery, fornication, or coveting illegal.
There may be some Christians that believe that all of the moral law should be forced into civil law. There may be some Christians that believe that we should focus on preaching the gospel only and let politics take care of itself.
Many in this forum, if thoughtful, would probably come down in the middle of those two points. I don't think it's fair for someone in the first camp to attack those in the latter camp as allowing evil things to happen because they are not trying to use politics to stop evil. These are legitimate differences in theology.
I am pragmatic on my approach to abortion. I want less. It's not fun being attacked by Christians for not supporting laws and amendments, but I think that reduction methods will cause less babies to die. Attack me if you will, but I won't attack you for an approach that I think will result in more dead babies.
Brittany said: "If I remember Kings and Samuel correctly God approved of the actions of some of the Kings while still calling them wicked for refusing to tear down the Ashteroth...So if I follow your logic William Wilberforce and the abolitionists were wrong"
Brittany, I was simply refusing your poor use of the Word of God to prove your faulty point. The example you gave of was saying that God would want Christians in the United States to "tear down the Ashteroth." I believe that Ashteroth was representative of fertility gods and sex was usually involved. This has nothing to do with killing or oppressing groups of people, which is a whole different question.
You characterization of my logic is not correct. However, each needs to choose where they will draw the line in which the church is compelled by the Bible to act politically to enforce his commandments. Is yours when other people are in danger of death or slavery, or is it when homosexuals want to marry, or is it when homosexuals want to live together, or is it when non-Christians visit an adult bookstore?
I wasn't fully clear about one thing: the reason I don't think that we need to tear down the Asteroth poles today (outside the church) is that the civil laws of the Old Testament (dictated to Israel) were pointing to what was to come and that those laws were fulfilled in Christ.
Notice that I am all for tearing them down within the church today.
All of you displease me, we all love to take G'ds word and turn them to our own understanding, we love to take things of G'd and make them our own, with our own understanding. You have one side that clearly dislikes Obama and you have another side that clearly think this man has been appointed as authority over them. Lest we forget the old testament of the Bible and the teaching there of the old law which Jesus himself come to fulfill. Have we all forgotten the tower of Babel? Each nation being split with there own language? This country has gotten the leader G'd has intended for us there is no dought about this in my mind or in the word of G'd. We are a nation dammed by G'd because we look to man for understanding. These scriptures are talking about our spiritual leaders not the leaders of man. I say we should appoint G'd to be our president and our King. This is the same thing that the children of Israel did in the old testament by looking to man as leaders. We have a leader and if the man is not of G'd then he is not a spiritual leader at all. Did G'd appoint him, this I am sure of because this is the leader that we as Christians deserve. We are not doing as the word of G'd has instructed us to do as christian people. I know some of you that are reading this that anger arises in you. If you read the Bible in all it's entirety you would understand what is being said in these passage. But this is a prime example of why we currently have an ungodly man appointed over us. Did I vote for McCain, yes but even he as many of our leaders in the past where not Godly men at all just as Solomon was appointed by G'd to show the children of Israel that all men no matter how great they may be, will fall without turning to G'd for answers and leadership. Soloman turned to strange wifes and took on the strange G'd of that time and Israel was pushed to the corners of the world because of it and spread across the world. I know some of you will read this but your understanding will be limited and your eye's will not see for you are blinded by G'd himself as was Pharaoh's heart was hardened so will yours be this day. But, there is hope that some will know the meaning of my words not as hate or dislike for our brothers but that our nation is not of G'd and the oneness that you all seek is not of G'd. We are heading back to pre-flood times where we where one big great nation and there was found no man of God except one. The time is at hand, him that have an ear let him hear.
It is important that as Christians we always pray for our President and leaders of this country. I don't remember much prayer being offered for President Bush when he was trying to keep us save. The most he got was a lot of bashing from all parties. Shame on us all! No wonder we are in the mess we are in.
Hal,
I'm a little confused by your logic (I guess God is hardening my heart). But I will go back to my point, America is not Israel. Actual believers in Christ are Israel. You are right, God should be our king and ruler. However, "our" refers Christians, not America. The president is not our prophet or priest or king. The president is our earthly ruler (actually he is part of one of three branches sharing power). Christ is our ultimate ruler. We don't need prophets, priests, or kings anymore; we have Jesus Christ.
lezlie, you're exactly right. i stand convicted. thanks for pointing that out. we can also pray for the transition taking place.
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Brian,
You are correct, this is the point I am making, but the second point I am making is the nation for which we live in is not Godly by any means, what are we to do, only G'd can answer this question with pray and FASTING!!! We, as christian should pray and fast daily for G'd to deliver us out of bondage. This nation is a nation of oneness that is not of G'd and Christians seem to think that all nations coming together is of G'd, and I say to you now that it is not of G'd but of Satan and of his works. Should we as Gentiles spread G'ds word to all Nations yes, we should go forth but you should pray on what I am telling you today, that all the races (Nations) coming together is an abomination unto G'd. Is this one of the most important things right now that has happen to us, no it isn't' but it is one of them still the same. You Brian have understood more than you know and I accept your response as with love and understanding my brother in Christ Jesus. May we be together in heaven always.
Love your brother in Christ Hal.
P.S. Don't interpret this as hate speech by no means, for all men come from the Breath of G'd and all men or of G'd and that G'd should see all men saved through Jesus Christ our Lord.
James White addressed this situation well.
http://tinyurl.com/5kdda6
I believe Dr. White's position on this is indeed Biblical and he eloquently brings up many excellent Biblical points.
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