An Ode to Free Will
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Arminian style:
posted by JT at Wednesday, January 03, 2007
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80 Comments:
Wow! I would have CHOSEN to walk out.
If only the Arminians would freely choose some better music! ; )
If I were there, I'd have been predestined to roll up and down the aisles laughing my head off.
Sproul's reworded 'Amazing Grace - Arminian Style' lyrics are less ridiculous...
Is this a joke?
I find this truly disturbing both theologically and liturgically.
mmmmm...PCC
gotta love the fundies!!!
Excuse me, I should have said:
I find this truly disturbing theologically, liturgically and musically.
Didn't want to leave that last one out...
:-)
"Freedom to choose." Pro-Choice?! Quick Martha, hide the children!
What's sad is that they began this "song" following the singing of a hymn that proclaimed that "...Jehovah Reigns!"
Sad, and conflicted.
Grasped Secure in the Grip of His Sovereign Grace,
Tom
Doctrine Matters
New worst song ever.
so, are these people lost or am I? Do they here of the awesome power they describe and then say how powerful man's will is??? I mean do they not here what they are saying?? So when they pray for a lost person...."God please save so in so".....and if you could hear God He would be saying "I'm doing the best I can but he won't let me go against there free will"....these folks need to go back and read Romans Chapter 3...and perhaps Jeremiah 13:23 and if I may ...
"If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God's giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished." - C.H. Spurgeon
and I can't spell "hear" :-)
you know, it didn't really surprise me that this took place at Pensacola College
what is a whipper-will when it is at home?
Do they also have the right to chose the songs that they will sing - as they roam the rocks and rills!?
The good folks over @ PCC need to stop by and pick up some literature down the street @ Mt. Zion Chapel Library. Such a song like this makes me wonder who is the object of our worship, God or us?
I just threw up in my mouth. What a terrible song.
wow...
Yikes! I'm not sure I'd call that "Arminian style," it would be hard for a classical Arminian to recognize their theology in that song. Ugh.
This whole post really bothers me. If I weren't a believer, I sure wouldn't want to be one after seeing this. Why are Christians taking time to post mockery of other Christians online? Are you really so sure you are so "right" that you have the obligation and right to mock other believers? I don't have predestination figured out, but I'm sure that whether we are predestined or not, we are still held accountable for our actions. And the only thing I see here is rediculous and childish. Whatever you are serving, I don't want.
This isn't a posting about mocking other Christians. It is exposing dreadfully bad theology, couched in dreadfully bad music/poetry, encouraged by dreadfully bad teaching. The stuff in the video clip is much more damaging to Christianity than anything posted here.
This is, indeed, horribly bad theology. I think I just crapped my pants.
Wow.
Was that the chapel service at RTS? ;)
"Even the oxen know the master's stall
and sheep will recognize the shepherd's call.
I could demand your love, I own you twice,
but only willing love is worth the price."
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
(John 10:27)
I guess Jesus should have added, "...if they are willing."
"no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" John 6:44 and 65.
Was the title supposed to be The Odor of Free Will? Because that really stunk.
Shameful confession: I've sung that song.
Unstinking Believable!
Where is John Daker when we need him?
The truly amazing thing is not that the people in this video believe the doctrine of free will. The amazing thing is that I do not. But for the grace of God, I would still be worshipping the human will myself, ignorantly belittling the sovereign grace of the God I claimed to serve.
I think we frequently risk painting ourselves into theological but unbiblical corners: if there is no free will, then God is unjust (could Adam have done otherwise? could Christ have done otherwise? any of us?). But, if there is free will, then God is not truly sovereign and omnipotent (as commonly understood).
We need to live with antinomies and questions that may never be explained or comprehensible to us. If we do not learn to do so, then we will deny one truth for the sake of another, or embrace one truth at the expense of another. Why do we have to convince ourselves that we "know" the answers to every question arising from our finitude or each mystery resulting from the incomprehensible mind of God?
Why, too, must we ridicule others' beliefs and actions if, after all, they are not free to choose or do other than what they have done? They were not able, according to the non-free-will belief, to believe otherwise. But, then, I suppose those that criticize and belittle others have no choice either - and thus escape responsibility and culpability.
As I observed yet another birthday last week, I again grieved that I am increasingly too old to know it all. But, I suppose, I have no choice in the matter.
And I recognize, too, that whatever responses appear here are inevitable and not the choice of any who write them.
Justin, I feel the same way as anonymous--this whole post really bothers me, too.
Why did you post this video? Was it like Ken Davis commented, "To expose bad theology"? But why did these singers need exposing, especially to your audience?
You are at your best, Justin, when you connect your readers to resources they may need and may not find without you. You do all of us a disservice when you invite us to sarcasm, superiority, judgement, and dismissiveness. You must have known that's how many of your readers would respond, right?
Respectfully,
KP
Those silly Arminians. Always telling funny jokes about the Bible and theology 'n' stuff.
Add my disappointment to the comments made by anonymous and 2-cents.
I visit here often and I know that the majority of the audience is Reformed or Calvinist. I fully expected and was not surprised by the responses to this post.
Sometimes those of a reformed tradition come across smug and arrogant. That's not an accusation, just an observation. I would as that a discussion of the theology was more in order than the ridicule heaped on these well intentioned (and most on this blog would say misguided) brothers and sisters.
Address the errors as you see them, but treat your fellow Christians with dignity.
Why was it posted? Perhaps because inviting some to "sarcasm, superiority, judgement, and dismissiveness" in these matters is characteristic of Owen himself.
When the first guy started singing, with all the hand motions and blowing into the mic, I thought this was supposed to be a joke like Evangelical Saturday Night Live. But, then I saw it was from Pensacola and it all made sense.
OK... bad song. No, awful, awful, awful, song.
As someone more sympathetic to Arminius than to his opponents, I've sometimes told Arminian friends that one reason (among others) that Arminians are sometimes labled "Pelagians" is that some self-described "Arminians" indeed are Pelagian.
Still, I'd be interested in knowing what the real (theological) gripe with this "song" is: is it (a) that the song affirms human freedom of any kind or (b) that the song presupposes "libertarian" human freedom? In other words, do you who ridicule this song reject freedom simpliciter, libertarian freedom, or what? Just curious.
Tom McCall
Perhaps some (including the people in the video) should read "Myth #4" from Roger Olson's Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities: "The Heart of Arminianism is Belief in Free Will." He spends a whole chapter debunking that myth.
A few quick thoughts:
(1) I think that humility is always required and self-righteousness is never allowed. I try (though often fail) to model those principles on this blog. I know that I'm responsible before God for what I say and post.
(2) I could control what others say, but for the most part I don't choose to do so. One could argue that I encourage such responses--that's perhaps more valid and at the same time it's not something that I control.
(3) I think it's biblical to (a) laugh at things that are funny, and (b) especially to laugh at things that are foolish. This video meets both of those criteria.
Hope that helps.
BTW, I would encourage any of you who offer critiques not to do so anonymously.
Thanks!
Justin
(3) I think it's biblical to (a) laugh at things that are funny, and (b) especially to laugh at things that are foolish. This video meets both of those criteria.
J.T.: And what makes this funny? Is it because it is a bad video/audio recording? The kids singing seem to come out of a 1950's Norman Rockwell painting? One disagrees with the theology and therefore is free to mock?
What makes it foolish? The fact that they are sincere? That they don't conform to the conventional wisdom of Reformed Orthodoxy?
These are honest questions that I think deserve an answer. I guess I'll just have to disagree with you on this one
Your blog post usually pass a much higher standard than this one. If the kids were doing a parody, or satire, that would be one thing, but it is obvious this was done in a chapel or church service and they were being sincere in what they were doing.
The "Calvinist Gadfly" picked up the link from this blog and the same sorts of comments are being made there.
Tom,
The lyrics of the song seem to be primarily concerned with human responsibility. That is not a bad thing. In fact, it's just as big a theme in scripture as divine sovereignty, but some favor the later more than the former and vice versa. When either human responsibility or divine sovereignty is favored more than the other, then the conception of each becomes significantly distorted.
The singers at PCC are obviously singing the poorly written song in a context that presupposes libertarian freedom, so it just reminds the Calvinstic critics of former painful experiences when they shared the same faulty conception of God and salvation.
I don't think they are paying attention to the lyrics themselves, but rather to the presuppositions of the song and the singers. Consider the lyrics themselves for a moment. Here are some of the "controversial" statements:
"Control the planets with their rocks and rills,
But give you freedom to use your own will."
Is this false? I don't see why the Calvinist would think so. God does give us freedom to use our will, doesn't he? However, it's just the case that he doesn't so neutralize the inherent bias and depravity in man's heart such that all men possess the power of contrary choice. That seems to be the idea of prevenient grace that the singers (and the song writer) at PCC probably presuppose.
"And if you want Me to, I'll make you whole,
I'll only do it tho' if you say so.
I'll never force you, for I love you so,
I give you freedom - Is it "yes" or "no"?"
If God makes us whole through the instrumental and/or secondary cause of faith, then what's the problem with saying that he will make us whole if we are willing? The problem comes in when some sing it while presupposing that God's quickening is the result of man's libertarian response. It's as if God is helplessly standing by waiting for the creature with the power of contrary choice to ask.
The Calvinist can also affirm that God doesn't force people. Even their confessions say that God does no violence to the human will. Furthermore, all Calvinsts can affirm that God loves all mankind. It's only the hyper-Calvinists that deny that. Again, the problem comes in when the singers at PCC presuppose that God EQUALLY loves all mankind and that the ultimate efficacious cause for why anyone is saved is a result of their libertarian response.
There's no problem with the idea that God gives us an opportunity to accept or reject his Son in the gospel offer/invitation. We are to choose this day whom we will will serve. Will it be the Lord and his word? Yes or No? A Calvinist can say that with no problem.
"But My own children come to Me by choice."
This statement is also not false. God's children do come to him by choice. But, as Spurgeon put it, faith is the act of man, but it is only the act of the renewed man. Truly coming to God through faith in Christ is the result of God's prior and efficacious work in the heart that results in the renewed man voluntarily or freely coming. His own children do come to him by "choice," but not in the sense in which the singers conceive of "choice." However, the preconceptions of the singers can be distinguished from the words of the song themselves. I hardly think the lyrics themselves warrant the "barfing" replies at the Calvinist Gadfly blog.
"I could demand your love - I own you twice,
But only willing love is worth the price!"
This line doesn't seem to make sense. God does demand our love AND he does want us to voluntarily come, so I don't understand their demand/willing dichotomy. Perhaps they are saying that God could force us to come, but he prefers us to freely come. If so, is that true? Is it really possible for a being such as God to do violence to the human will such that it comes to him? I don't think so, but maybe they do.
Also, the "own you twice" and "price" seems to bring to mind God's act of creation and Christ's coming to die. Thus, God owns us (according to what the lyrics suggest) by virtue of creation and by virtue of Christ's "payment". The idea will be granted by both Calvinists and non-Calvinists. It's the last point that modern high Calvinists, such as Justin Taylor and other Owenists, cannot accept. But is the idea that Christ paid a price for all really a problem for Calvinism? Not necessarily. Some Calvinsts think that Christ paid a sufficient ransom price for all, but the application of it is conditioned on faith, which only the elect perform as a result of the regenerating work of the Spirit. So, again, the lyrics themselves are not as evil as they being portrayed. It's just the case that the underlying theological framework of the singers and writer is faulty.
p.s. Contrary to what some have said elsewhere, I don't think they are "praising free will". They believe they are encouraging their listeners to obey the gospel call and realize their responsibility before God to do so. It's just the case that they are doing so from within a strange fundamentalist sub-culture, with all of its oddities.
So here's my beef. Now I'm going to spend the rest of the day humming:
"I own the cattle on a thousand hills..."
Thanks alot Justin
Yeah we have free will and we use it to SIN! We can only act acc. to our sin nature. Thank God for saving us and making us alive in Christ..
Also, theological issues aside, that was just a weird song anyways...
Ken Davis said:
The stuff in the video clip is much more damaging to Christianity than anything posted here.
I would respectfully, but strongly, disagree.
Jesus said that his disciples would be recognizable by their love, not because their doctrine was flawless.
None of us is perfect. And that includes our understanding of theology. Theology is a human construct. It is necessarily imperfect.
It is good to study theology and to be convinced of what we believe. But there is always a need for humility, no matter what view we hold.
Arrogance about theology is still arrogance.
We are not saved by proper theology. We are saved by grace. One of the biggest barriers to grace is pride. It is entirely possible for someone to have perfect theology and to remain unregenerate.
I would like to see some of the energy that is expended to trying to refine all the specific details of theology invested instead in cultivating the fruit of the Spirit.
I would like to see a little more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control among those who call themselves followers of Jesus Christ.
If the "doctrines of grace" are correct, then those who act with superiority because they have understood and "accepted" them demonstrate by their behavior that they neither understand nor accept them.
But don't mind me. I'm just an old guy with flawed theology.
Rod
Two Words...
LIGHTEN UP!!
This video was funny and silly and sad... It's not doing 'horrible' damage to anything or anyone, just like the posts that get read by such a small group of people...
I'll be honest...I'm still trying to get this doctrine down. I was raised one way, now I'm in a church that believes the other way. What I've read in most of these postings hasn't brought me any closer to deciding what I truly believe is right.
Doctrine aside? I went to Pensacola Christian College. I graduated from PCC. I also sang in an ensemble like the one you just heard. What I find disturbing is that some of you seem to look down on these Christians because of their music style. Or because they wave their hand. Or because they wear certain clothes. Is that biblical? So what...it's not your style? It's not mine either. Along with learning about Calvinism/Arminianism, I'm also learning to show my fellow Christians GRACE in areas where we don't completely agree.
Oh, and just for the record, singing in an ensemble is a job. It pays tuition. And if Mrs. Horton says wave your hand, you'd better wave your hand. Thanks for reading.
Cindy
AWESOME! That song touched my heart...God's so awesome! He created everything and writes songs for birdies and whatnot...man! Praise him!
And on a more serious note, what's with all the time wasting on arguing about Arminianism and Calvinism? Man...don't you Calvinists get it?
Pretty much every Arminian I've ever met held to that stuff because:
a. That's what they were brought up with.
b. That's what some 'nice guy' told them. (see point 'd')
c. They kinda studied the bible for themselves and ended up there (however that went).
d. They met a Calvinist who was a total butt-head (and honestly, many Calvinists I've met ARE total butt-heads...see point 'b').
e. They took a semester of philosophy and realized that it was the only 'logical' position.
Making fun of bad theology is fun and all, and LORD knows I do it, but I'd say why not make fun of the REALLY bad theology (like things that would make you NOT a Christian) and keep the "in house" stuff on a more 'cordial' tone. Disagreement, discussion from the scriptures and whatnot, but not straight up mockery. That's not helping anyone...and yes, I'm guilty too.
If one really believes that Arminians are WRONG on a doctrine, (and doctrine is IMPORTANT to us, right?) then to think that mockery is somehow ACTUALLY dealing with problems 'a' through 'e', OR that mockery will straighten them out, only shows that one is an idiot and the belief that "Calvinists are butt-heads" is actually true.
Oh, and Cindy? Don't pay heed to people making fun of the musical style...the last concert I went to was Children of Bodom, Amon Amarth and Gojira. I don't think ANYONE here would like that musical style too. Some people are IMPOSSIBLE to please! *sigh*
I'm saddened by the responses to this post also (not opposed to JT posting it). I agree that the ridiculing is not necessary, Biblical, nor beneficial to those of us who affirm the doctrines of grace and our desire to win those over to sound doctrine that is consistent with the Scriptures and that is in accord with godliness.
It is not consistent with Paul's command to Timothy as to how we are to even "refute those who oppose," i.e., "with gentleness and respect." He even mentions that "the Lord's bondservant must be kind to all." (1 Tim 2:24-25) Unfortunately, alot of what has been said here is not kind nor respectful.
JT - you know I appreciate you bro - but you need to show us where we are to laugh at what is foolish and how that specifically applies to this situation in light of the passage I just presented.
I think ynottony has provided the most beneficial post - which is an examination of what is being said, its intent, and where biblical Calvinists would agree. Yet, still setting forth clearly what is not consistent with Scripture. And then leaving it at that.
We have to remember that the goal of refuting false doctrine is love, good conscience and sincere faith. (1 Tim 1:3-4) And the means is through firm conviction asserted through respectful speech. (2 Tim 2:24-25) This is what we've been commanded.
Eph 4:15,
Q
This video was funny and silly and sad... It's not doing 'horrible' damage to anything or anyone
It is damaging. It is damaging to students who go to such a school and try to measure up to what will please God, and not understand their failure to do so.
It is damaging because Arminianism is a hard taskmaster. Yeah, the song has lyrics about God letting us choose, but then when we make bad choices, we are overcome with guilt that we just don't love God like we ought.
It is damaging because these singers carry the burden of legalism on their shoulders and their relationship with God is contingent on their performance or works (at least that is how they probably understand it).
It is not an issue of Calvinists being arrogant, it is an issue of coming into an understanding of the Doctrines of Grace, and hoping those singers will someday understand good theology and likewise depend on God's grace in their own lives.
This is an example of what the American revivalistic movement has given to the church of Jesus Christ. The very lyrics themselves make so sense. Where in Holy Scripture does it state that God has limited his sovereignty so that human beings are free to choose God? There is simply no Scriptural warrent for this most unbiblical song.
Poor Sovereign Lord--He made all things, turns kings hearts like streams of water, opens Lydia's heart to respond to the gospel, appoints those who will be saved, foreknows His chosen ones, gives birth so they can receive (John 1:13), but is reduced to a blinded beggar left to wonder "is it 'yes' or 'no?'"
Did someone invite the Mormons to dinner or something?
That pastor resigned from that church many months ago, FWIW. So the video is a bit dated.
John 6:44
(Jesus) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
To those who don't understand the criticism of this song's message, this is it in a nutshell. It is heresy to say that God is standoffish toward sinners and won't do anything else to save them. The Bible does not teach this exalted free will being praised in this song.
my votes for funniest comment award:
"I just threw up in my mouth" by tim ellsworth
best overall comment award: cap stewart's "the amazing thing..." comment
i used to believe exactly what this song says because my Southern Baptist church taught me that way. I remember in college thinking one of my classmates who was a "calvinist" was "arrogant" even though I never remember him being arrogant to me. Unbeknownst to me, my pride was so strong and insidious that I was just repulsed by "Calvinism." I had no idea about the Grace of God. I thought I did, but I didn't.
Perhaps many commenters here never really believed "bad theology," and that's truly good. But I was once "sold" (and brought up) on some wretched man centered preaching and teaching.
I don't know how God got through to me, but in GRACE He did. I feel like I won the lottery. I feel like I want to tell all my friends that the man-centered stuff we grew up on is trash and invite them to the good stuff.
"and if you want me to I'll make you whole,
I'll only do though, if you say so."
YIKES.
Anonymous,
You cite these words and respond with a "YIKES":
"and if you want me to I'll make you whole,
I'll only do though, if you say so."
What do you find objectionable about these words themselves? Suppose that "make you whole" means "to justify, to convert, or to save you." Suppose also that "if you say so" means "if you call upon my name, or humbly ask me in faith". What would be wrong with that?
NKJ Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD [asks or pleads] Shall be saved [made whole].'
As I said above, one can distinguish between the words or lyrics themselves and the theological frameworks of those who sing them. So, are you objecting to the above cited words themselves? Or to the theology of the singers? Or both?
If you object to the above cited words as well, I would like to know why?
The song sounded like a mix between Hodges and Manilow (I write the songs...). Creatively wrong.
There are certain things you don't have to make fun of, becuase any attempt at making fun of them falls short of the unintentional comedy of the thing itself (ht: bob hyatt for what he calls hyatt's law www.bobblog.typepad.com).
This clip meets that criteria. Don't make fun or call it out, your comments don't hold a candle to the hilarity and putridity of actually watching it.
Is this a live feed from HELL?
Tim
ynotty,
It is the word "only" in that lyric: "I'll only do so, if you say so."
That is a YIKES moment.
Hi John,
Why does the inclusion of the word "only" make the following words a "YIKES moment"?
"and if you want me to I'll make you whole,
I'll only do though, if you say so."
Suppose I speak or sing to someone and say, "God will ONLY save you [make you whole] if you call upon him in faith, i.e. ask him to do so with a believing heart". What would be wrong with that?
Does God save mature sinners [people who can understand lyrics] any other way than through faith alone in the gospel offer? The act of faith is an absolute requirement in order to be justified or to be united with Christ and his merits, correct? Or is there some other way?
i work as a church secretary and pensacola christian college sent us a brochure with some specific classes they were offering. one is a refute to calvinism. i personally hate the label, but the Bible is very clear regarding the doctrines of grace. when you begin studying scripture in context you realize it speaks of being saved by grace alone EVERYWHERE! there is no sense in arguing. God is the one who opens the eyes to see.
Dry. funny. sad.
I'm just still trying to get past the fact that someone seriously decided to ryhme "thousand hills" with "whippoorwills".
In the words of Miss Daisy, "I hope I don't spit up."
In general, I'm not a big fan of songs that put words in God's mouth, whether the theology is good or not. Besides, didn't God say adding to his words was kind of a no-no?
Someone above said that this is more along the lines of Pelagius (sp?). You are correct. He set forth that man wasn't completely fallen in Adam and that man was basically good (sound familiar?) his main principle?....that man's will was absolutely free. Many are falling into this deception because they want to be their own God.
What truly amazes me about this clip is that they are praising their "choice" not God. Twisting it to say that God's greatest love was this gift of free will....seems like the Pastor says something like this at the end.....but I am telling you that God's greatest gift of love was that He sent His Son to die on a cross, not man's will. According to the Bible we are absolutely corrupted by sin.
What really astonishes me...It’s as if they think God is doing us a favor by allowing us to have a “free will”, when in fact that would guarantee our condemnation.
As for one of the "Anonymous" comments....I was trying to figure all this out about 3 months ago.....and PRAISE God! He opened my eyes to it and if you get some legitamite materials to read and read your Bible in sync....you will clearly see it....it's there and we don't like it because we MUST come completely to the end of ourselves and rely solely on Christ...Who is God in the flesh, BTW. Free will was my biggest struggle to understand and finally God opened my eyes much like He did Lydia (Acts 16:14)
I pray that you seek these truths in prayer and you might come to the same understanding, LORD willing....that these type folks may not be saved at all because they believe THEY started their faith with their "choice"....and clearly Scripture that Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).
As for predestination this is pretty clear to me in Romans 9,10, 11.....I am deeply troubled by those that say they dont believe in it because that is saying you dont believe the Bible, predestination is there.
These folks could be believers, but Christ said that there will be tares amongst the wheat. That's false converts INSIDE the church. I submit they are decieved much like I was, but I repented once I realized the truth. The other issue they have is that they think their "belief" is what saves them, it is not. It is grace by faith accompanied by repentance (which is preceeded and followed with) that saves you and both are gifts from God. It's all there in the Bible.
Finally, Jesus warned that on that Day many will say "Lord, Lord did we not....." you fill in the blank. I for one will not kneel there and say "I chose You, LORD...I chose You!"
If it's ridicule, then it's ridicule. However, we should be warning as many folks as possible to false doctrines and make true believers aware of false teachings and doctrines. Jesus warned us and so did the Apostles....who were also sarcastic too, and so were the Prophets.
Two thoughts of Scripture:
"And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." (2Co 11:12-14)
Acts 18:9,10
And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, "Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people." (note that Jesus did not say "all" He said "many".
Soli Deo Gloria!
Guys, maybe we should lighten up, realize its not a personal attack and laugh at the expense of a horrendous song- as one so eloquently put it; "theologically, liturgically, and musically"-
So was that song predestined to suck, or does it suck of its own free will?
Okay, after that comment, I have to say Im glad people are calling it out. Talk about trying to make the gospel politically correct. When a song pretty much says that God will only save you if its okay with you, but would never want to in any way make you feel uncomfortable or force you into anything, because that would be just plain mean to make you feel bad, you know that its just trying to make you feel good about yourself. Im glad it was in Gods plan for me to feel completely broken before I accepted salvation. Otherwise it wouldnt be lasting, real, or worth anything. I do believe that the Bible says that salvation is an act of God, by the way.
I accepted Christ because I didn't have any choice. :)
Some "evangelist" came to our church and sang that song. It didn't get an amen, thankfully. It is so heretical! Good thing the music is distasteful.
All I gotta say is "AMEN changed guy!"
If I evangelize someone "Arminian" style (altar call and all) and they come to Christ by grace alone through faith alone, are they really saved?
If so, it seems like there is a lot of vitriol over an "in-house" Christian issue.
As a side note, maybe I haven't been to the "worst of the worst" Arminian-style churches, but I have probably been subject to some "horrible" teaching by many reformed folks standards, yet I have never seen a preacher focus on man over God.
"accepted salvation".....where is that in the Bible?.....
Meh. I couldn't get over the fact that the PCC girls wore blazers that I could NEVER find during the time I spent there.
"There does not appear any greater evil in the disputes concerning matters of religion, than the persuading ourselves that our salvation or God's glory are lost by every little difference. As for me, I exhort my scholars, not only to distinguish between the true and the false according to Scripture, but also between the essential articles of faith, and the less essential articles, by the same Scripture."
--Jacobus Arminius
"If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God's giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished."
- C.H. Spurgeon
FWIW, many fundamentalists do not consider PCC a reputable school. Nearly all of the fundamentalists with whom I am acquainted think PCC is a terrible college.
Between PCC's KJV-onlyism and their Arminianism, no Christian should recommend Pensacola to any young person no matter how low their tuition is.
Great. Now I have Pepsi all over my new keyboard...
I was just wondering if anyone at all knows where to find the author and composer of this "piece" of music?
I would really like to know who in the world is behind this drivel.
Thanks.
Sorry.
email: g_mblewett@yahoo.com
WOW! Sure hit a hot button with this one!
I guess we'll have eternity to sort this one out.
Xplorer 1
I believe MLS left a comment...by C.H. Spurgeon. Correct? I went to PCC, and funny thing - so did Spurgeon's 7th generation grandson. I don't agree with everything they do or say, but I will tell you this - You'd better go where God wants you to go, no matter WHAT you think you like or don't like. If you don't obey, you will be miserable! I recommend this college in this way... Yes, it has rules. If you can handle it - GO! Yes, it has theology problems - EVERY PLACE DOES. If you know God wants you there, go. Don't choose it for cost, or anything other than God.
He's just posted the video and not even commented.
As far as mocking goes, the Arminians in the video are speaking for themselves!
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