Piper on Language
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John Piper was asked: "At the Passion07 breakout session you used language that seemed inappropriate to some. Will you explain why you did that?" Here is his answer.
posted by JT at Wednesday, January 10, 2007
41 Comments:
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He was called on it and he stepped up to the plate to deal with it without reservation. That's the way it's supposed to be done. It's so easy to put people of Piper's stature on a pedestal and assume they are perfect...but I know Piper would be the first to acknowledge he is a sinner just like the rest of us.
If he had ignored it or tried to defend himself in arrogance, there would be something to say. Since he didn't...case closed. Let's move on.
Charley
http://www.riseupandgetserious.blogspot.com
charley...I completely agree...was just curious and an observation
Wow how did I know this would come back to Driscoll? Why not just blame Mark for the war in Iraq. I imagine Piper would find the notion offensive that mark is to blame as an influence for his unwise words. Also Seth I do not think the comment you referenced was at all directed toward Mark. I have come to realize that those who equate foul language to Mark and preaching have really not listened to him that much or very often. As someone who has listened to him for years I can only recall one time hearing him use a swear word. Does that mean it is okay? Absolutely not, but lets not attribute foul language preaching with Driscoll, it is unfair and incorrect.
I must be totally missing the point. The context of the phrase seemed appropriate in the sense that it actually got people's attention. It was not a swear word. It was harsh language, but the prophets use that sort of language as well. I find it bothersome that people are more concerned that he used the word "ass" than the point he was making which is that God does often do things in the life of his children that are like being kicked there. I guess he could have used stomach, but both are parts of the human anatomy so why make such a big deal of it.
Maybe it is because I am Canadian, but it seems college students I knew from the US who were Christians would say "God" as an expletive often as if it was just fine, while if I occasionally used the 's' word that speaks of what is left after our body processes the food we eat, they would get all huffy at me. It is one thing taking the name of God in vain. It is another to use foul and disgusting language as part of your common discourse. It is quite another to use a very visceral phrase that is neither sexual innuendo nor outright taking the name of the Lord in vain. Piper did nothing wrong and people need to stop being so sanctimonious about something that was perfectly fine.
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I had several friends go to Passion 07, and not a single one could tell me what Pastor John spoke on. However, every one of them made sure to tell me that he used a "swear" word. There's something wrong when swearing makes a bigger impact on someone than the proclamation of the Gospel. Maybe it's just my friends, but when I still haven't heard, it kind of makes me wonder.
My point Seth was that you attributed Piper's unwise phrase to Driscoll, but yet you did so with no basis at all. Give the guy a break.
Hey Seth,
Sorry if you thought I was aiming at you. I wasn't. It was just a general comment about how this sort of thing gets blown waaaaayyyyy out of proportion. And from McGregor's comment, it seems that far too many didn't hear the content of Piper's message. Having read it, I find that saddening, for it was inspired....
Just a thought, but rather than targeting Driscoll...could these comments be in reference to that new "Men's" movement that champions all sorts of vulgarities as "Godly Manliness?"
Charley
http://www.riseupandgetserious.blogspot.com
i agree with jim. stop being so sanctimonious. read his utterance in context and quit trying to impose some de-contextualized idea of the holy upon his Spirit-led quickening. if you weren't there, don't condemn him. if you were there and weren't his audience, simmer down. be gracious with Piper and read his utterance with positive intent and take a chill pill. don't be gracious with Piper because he's a "sinner," though - but because you know you're a sinner, and b/c you know you're ever so prone to the legalistic sin of being puffed up and to feel holier than him since you don't say ass. also, if you're the kind of person who doesn't say ass, perhaps you're a tight ass and could stand a trip outside of the Christian ghetto where you might find some suffering people. i'm convinced that if you ever want a ministry with those who are suffering, crapping your pants about their language each time they say ass isn't going to get you there. the world is changing folks. not everyone lives in the disney world of the american suburbs. piper's a holy man, and i can even understand it when a holy man goes out on a limb to translate the bible's message into something that's going to wake up our bored and self-righteous youth with something peculiarly fresh. he is not a sinner, he is a prophet. i receive his words with a thankful heart, and i pray the Lord will break down my pride. thankfully all God asked Piper to do was light a flame under our lazy asse(t)s -- after all, he asked isaiah (ch. 20) to preach naked for three years straight. i think we can repent of our self-righteous indignation now.
Hmmm...is "Kick in the ass" a literal gender neutral translation? I will consult my "Piper Groupie-Cool Hip Calvinist ESV" and get back to you...must be hard to be a "Piper" around so many hipsters like Driscoll and the Sov Grace types...
I respect the fact that Piper is humble enough to hold his hand up on this one. What surprises me is that he thought there would be value in saying it. JP has such a strong a command of language that he surely doesn't need to resort to anything remotely border-line.
As to Jim's points, I don't believe its sanctimonious to expect our leaders to be careful in what they say. Haven't you read James 3? Furthermore, I can't buy into the suggestion (which is implied) that we somehow need to make a choice between personal holiness and evangelism; as if being concerned for purity in speech means you must be detached from evangelism in the 'real world.'
Colin,
I think you hit the nail on the head. If we believe in a Sov. God why do we need to resort to this (vulgar) methodology? John MacArthur has written briefly about this... see Grunge Christianity. Also see Challies on where Jay Bakker has ended up by using this same mentality. George Whitefild preached a sermon about the unholy habit of cursing. In it he notes, the futility of it see that there is no temptation to do it, that it offers no pressure like coveteousness to do it. Matt. 12:36,37 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned". Titus 2:8 exhorts us to "Sound speech, that cannot be condemned". Eph. 4:29 "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers". Col. 3:8 "But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth."
The Bible has much to say about this Un-Holy Habit so we are not left to speculate about it. It is wrong and it should be condemned no matter whose mouth it comes out of.
I am no Piperette, so I have no dog in this fight. Nevertheless, the issue of the moment seems pretty clear to me: Piper felt that he made a mess and he cleaned it up. I applaud his honesty and humility. What more could he do?
Personally, I find the attitudes reflected in many of the comments to be more offensive than what Piper said: scapegoating Driscoll by calling him into question, questioning movements, taking shots at theological positions. The hearts revealed here are troubling. Where are our loyalties? Our respect? Our own humility.
Perhaps I have been hoisted on my own petard by this comment, but I do not claim to be innocent. Hopefully we will all learn to remove the sequoias from our eyes . . .
I think we should kick him out of ministry and then make him walk around with a 'c' on his chest.
Bob,
About your friend not knowing what he spoke about but knowing that he cussed...
I had two thoughts come to mind.
First, as a former youth pastor, I was blown away by the number of times that students remember incidental details (good, bad, or neutral) and ignore the rest of the picture (teaching, situations, trips, etc.) It's definitely a pattern in the lives of the youth I've worked with.
Secondly, I think it reflects more on your friends than Piper. I haven't read/heard/watched what Piper shared at Passion07 but I've yet to encounter ANY Piper materials that aren't full of great biblical content. Your friends had to have closed their minds and hearts to not have a clue what he talked about or gotten anything out of it. A person who hears one borderline cuss word and totally shuts down like that is a very immature person (I mean that objectively not pejoratively).
I remember two instances of speakers/preachers cussing in chapel (years ago when I was in college).
One (Tony Campolo) did so to be offensive and it was part of his point (which I also recall). I didn't like and still don't like his method but I understood and heard his message.
The second individual used a music clip with cussing in it and proceeded to flaunt his "freedom" (and specifically "freedoms" not enjoyed by the student body) throughout his message in a variety of ways. I remember neither his message, his name, or even his face. I only recall a man jumping around on the platform in a white suit trying to be cool.
I can't begin to fathom Piper being like that second individual. And I don't think he's even like Campolo in the sense described above. Because Campolo was unrepentant and unapologetic for his choice of language. Not so with Piper.
I'm almost glad that Piper said it and apologized. Sometimes, it's an encouragement to know that even those who can appear to be on a pedestal are still just men in desperate moment by moment need for Jesus. I can follow a man who needs and follows Jesus.
I totally agree with you Dylan. I listen to Pastor John all the time. I've sat in on a question and answer with him and about 50 others at his church. I've never heard the man present anything that wasn't Biblical. All of his teachings that I've encountered have impacted me. So, I would agree that it's probably my friends, but I think it's sad that people remember the sin that makes us human, rather that remembering truth that redeems man.
Bob - What the Hell are you wearing in that picture? Are you the "evangelical Borat"?
Interestingly, in my morning reading today, I read John's devotional "Thanksgiving for the Lives of Flawed Saints" in Life as a Vapor. It is also available here, and well worth reading as a conclusion to John's humble comment.
In response to what I'm wearing in my profile pic...It is a recycling of thrift store close for a social this past summer, and I just happened to have a mustache at the time. I was student staff for a college ministry.
i think this is really just a testimony to humble orthodoxy. you know, jesus was just a man who came in the likeness of sinful flesh. so did piper. we need to be gracious to understand and love our neighbors, and we should be more humble. its just sad that we're so naturally pridefully heterodox, but its not enough to be pridefully orthodox or even humbly heterodox. we must really become humbly orthodox, pouring out the strength and benefits we deserve like christ did in Philippians 2, and become humble. do you think its arrogant to say that we're the humble orthodox? i mean, the bible is very clear. like, i mean, even a less smart person should really understand its easy to read and self-sufficient in explanation, and also be humbly orthodox like jesus was. not that i'm smart or anything, since its only by Christ's abundant strength that I can even stand here today and say this.
bob, do you really insult everyone you meet or just the poor who are pressed to afford every day the clothes you wear for fun as a joke? also, you deserve a millstone hung around your neck and to be dropped into the ocean for your disrespectful attitudes you're teaching the youth. your actions are like mark driscoll's - simply reprehensible. teaching children to socialize and drink and be sexually inflammatory. if you had read piper and grudem's book, you'd know that men are not to wear pink and if you knew even the first thing about youth ministry, you wouldn't condone this homosexual behavior. your actions are a perversion and would never be commended in the biblical account. if you were my youth pastor, i'd offer you a one way ticket to north korea and we'd see what kind of queer reception they give you there.
That's quite a harsh statement you've made anonymous. First, you are judging me by a single picture. Second, you are assuming that I was part of a much different social than I was part of. The social that I was part of occurs at the end of the week after all 100 college students have finished working there 40 hour a week jobs. The sole purpose of the social is fellowship and getting around the body. There is no alcohol, sexual immorality, etc. We spend time together discussing our weeks, what the Lord has taught us in His Word, discuss the friendships we've made at work, and discuss ways to share the Gospel with the people we've made relationships with. The next day we all have the day off from work and we study the Bible for the purpose of sharing the Gospel. I hate that you dislike my picture and think I should be drowned in a deep ocean abyss. If you insist, however, I'll change my picture, so you never have to see it again. But, I thank you for your reference of "Biblical Manhood & Womanhood." I'll make sure I read it, soon. I actually have it in .pdf for future reading. At the moment, I'm reading John Owen's "Overcoming Sin and Temptation". It's really making a great impact on my heart in mortifying sin. So thanks Justin for editing it. And by the way, I'm going to Thailand for two months in hopes of sharing the Gospel with college students. The Lord hasn't called me to North Korea, but I pray that we all pray for that nation and the people who live there. Satan has a strong grip on that country. Don't worry though. I won't be wearing the pink thrift store jacket to Thailand. I apologize to the rest of the bloggers on here who have to read this, rather than commenting on Pastor John's great humility in apologizing for his mistake.
Maybe I am missing something here, but I do not find JP’s apology that impressive. Someone once said; “Don’t mess up an apology with an excuse”. He seems in this statement to be still wrestling with the issue of whether or not foul language has a place in the preaching of the gospel. As I pointed out in a previous post, this type of communication is un-biblical and un-becoming of a minister of the Gospel. There is no justifying it because hip people want to hear that type of language or because others speak that way. The Bible commands us, as faithful Bereans (Acts 17) to scrutinize what is being taught to ensure that it lines up with the Word of God. In the Bereans case they were analyzing the Apostles words, certainly we have the warrant to question the words and method of any preacher today… no matter how many books he has written. JP has had a wonderful and very beneficial ministry, I would say JP “Don’t waste your ministry” by giving in to this modern worldly notion that we have to resort to profane preaching in order to reach the lost.
This reminds me of those celebrity gossip blogs/rags where every bit of a celebrity's life is scrutinized and discussed and debated. Where someone can say an off hand comment somewhere and in no time everyone knows about it and they’re being grilled about it (never mind the fact that people don't even remember anything else that was said). And then we get other celebrities to comment and weigh in with their opinions on whether they were right or wrong or if it even matters.
This looks just like the world. There's just way too much Christian celebrity worship in the church right now.
its always easier to make a black and white statement than a wise judgment. this issue is not easy and good people of all sorts will judge differently. i'm glad i only have to account for my own words. that's plenty.
The Q&A time at Passion 07 where Piper let a word slip under a little emotion was amazing. He answered some great question about spiritual growth, humility, and love. I hope that a transcript will eventually be made available, edited or not for language.
As is sadly common the most ungodly comments here are made by someone who hides behind 'Anonymous' and from that hiding place makes puerile and spurious comments.
JT, I ask once more that you please block Anonymous as an option so that these people who hide at least have to identify themselves.
As to this 'storm in a teacup', I find it somewhat ridiculous that a small, one off slip by John Piper is being treated by some as if it was some form of global heresy.
Charley was one of the few here to have a balanced perspective and as Charley said...'case closed. Lets move on.'
Why, thank you for the complement, Glenn!
Charley
http://www.riseupandgetserious.blogspot.com
You geeks -- anoymous anoys you? Christian integrity? What a hoot. Okay -- Piper got carried away -- big deal. Apology was to cover his ass with you self-righteous puritan wannabees. His message was on target -- Cross centered. Leave it a that.
Well, Balaam beat his a-- and Moses mounted his a-- and yes, occasionally God has kicked mine too.
I must say that I very much appreciate John Piper's apology. However, as far I am concerned, I believe it unnecessary. It seems to me that he used appropriate speech for the context in which he was speaking - a group of 18-24 year old college kids. If he had been speaking to a group where children were present - then perhaps an apology would be necessary. However, he used language that was quite fitting to make the point that he needed to make.
Biblical language is definitely not all flowers and sunshine. "Dung" or "rubbish" is not an accurate translation of Philippians 3:8 (at least in my opinion). It needs to be a much cruder word. I also think Paul used some fairly borderline language in Galatians 1, in reference to false teachers. There does seem to be some Biblical precedent for this sort of use of language.
I don't know anything about the "cussing pastor trend". I was a pastor for 13 years (up until last year). Maybe that missed where I was serving. However, I do think that Dr. Piper has been around long enough to not fall into some sort of 'trend'. I personally am impressed with the fact that he used culturally appropriate language to make a vital point to a group of people that probably do not hear this sort of message on a regular basis.
I also am impressed with the grace and humility of his apology, as well .
However, as far as I am concerned - no apology necessary.
The "wimp factor" is well and alive on this site. Get a life and move on! I'm delighted that men like JP are actually "in the battle"!
It requires a certain level of maturity to hear a speaker who would use that type of language and still be focused on the message. Do you remember in 5th grade in sex education when the teacher would say the name of a reproductive organ and the whole class would just trip out and totally lose focus. I believe this would be a case of the same type of immaturity. Dont get tripped out and miss the point. Im not justifying using any language that we please, but understand the purpose in the context. The use of "ass" is no different than "rear" if driven by the same motive. His motive and point were very clear to me (I was in the break out session). It was not as if he was doing a middle school conference. I would hope that a room full of college students would have the maturity to see past this.
Biblically, given the use of 'harsh' or offensive language throughout the Bible, cursing is forbidden ('damning' an individual, or using God's name in vain), and cussing - or offensive language - is ill-advised, and only to be used in the most well-thought-out way...but just cussing for cussing's sake - not necessarily a sin - but it just makes you look like an idiot and reflects poorly on both God, and yourself, as it makes all Christians just look a little bit stupid for not being able to find a more intelligent word for making the point. But for sure - I think Piper may have gone too far IN APOLOGIZING as those I know who were there were very challenged by what he spoke on and grew in respect for him as a result.
I attend this church. I have seen Pastor Piper's heart. He is constantly working hard to find language that is both worthy of God and will "get" people, draw them in, shake them up, bring them out of complacency and slumber. Recently he used the word "horny" in a sermon. I was shocked in a good way, a way that led to remorse for trading in the glory of God for a cheap substitute. I'm sure this is the outcome that Pastor Piper prays for.
Nobody is more aware of the pitfalls of notoriety than Pastor Piper is himself.
Ryan,
This is my issue: I don't want to sit and rip on Mark Driscoll, but when Mark Driscoll, you and others lift him up as an example to be followed of life and doctrine, at this point I am forced to speak as one who thinks that he is a very bad example. Stop asking him to talk at conferences and speaking of him as if he is someone to follow and then we will stop our critism. Yes, we are all sinners. But as someone who has worked in homosexual settings and heard him refer to "faggoty" this and that, I can tell you he is ungodly in this and extremely arrogant. On another point that I find almost as important: Piper was right that you cannot be witty and proclaim God as glorious.
I recall Paul saying something that he is a jew to the jews and a gentile to the gentiles. So, why criticize JP for talking to teenagers on thier level.
Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge or you to will be judged"
I would say that anyone on this site who has ever thought or spoken a single word like this, or watched a movie or listened to music with inappropriate language, ought just leave this discussion and not worry about what Mr. Piper said.
I am more offended that so many "Christ Followers" would waste their time on a site like this casting judgment on a fellow brother.
"Let him with out sin, cast the first stone."
I liked that he said "ass" for a change. It was uplifting to me that he was willing to swear for the Lord - a beautiful example of kick ass Christian liberty.
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