Theological Roundtable
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Here's a two-hour discussion between John Piper and Mark Dever on topics like limited atonement, N.T. Wright, which Edwards books to read, being "missional," megachurches, congregationalism, abortion, and more.
Bruce Ware, who doesn't quite see eye-to-eye with Piper on limited atonement, also joins the first part of the discussion.
Bruce Ware, who doesn't quite see eye-to-eye with Piper on limited atonement, also joins the first part of the discussion.
posted by JT at Monday, March 05, 2007
12 Comments:
Justin, the link to the rountable Piper/Ware discussion takes us to the same link as the David Wells audio link, so when i click on it i get the David Wells Above earthly powers message mp3
thanks for fixing that so quickly!
Justin: You have "Mark Dever" talking to John Piper in your explanation of the audio -- If I'm not mistaken, isn't it Bruce Ware?
If you listen to the whole thing, 90% of it is Piper-Dever. Ware is only in on the first part of it.
JT
Justin, I just recently listened to this audio when it came up on 9marks. The dialog between Ware and Piper was great. I agree with Piper when he says that he has a hard time calling Ware a 4-pointer. His view is so close to Pipers that most 5-pointers would completely agree with Ware's view. I guess maybe it is the tendency of SBTS to be "biblical theologians" more so than "systemiticians" that forces him to preserve the universal texts.
i thought it was interesting how initially he disagrees with _the race set before us_ (or at least a very quick summary of it), but then at the very end he seems to say something very similar to it. i wish that question had come in earlier so he'd address it more fully... it seems like a lot depends on how the question is asked, as to whether he agrees with it or not
Justin...thank you for this link...this was a great recording.
I wish we could have heard more! I love listening to q & a's where they ask things that I'm thinking about!
In Christ
Noah
justin,
thanks for the link...it's always good to hear from piper and dever. But i was really shock to hear dever expound wright's view on eternal assurance...he makes wright 's view sound like if you don't have enough good works than you won't be saved, which is way off the mark.
blessings,
dan
I found it kind of ironic that Piper and Dever criticized Wright's views as undermining assurance when at the end of the discussion Piper explained 1 Cor. 9 in a manner very similiar to Wright's views on justification.
According to Wright, the fact that justification is an end times verdict (based on the entire life) that has brought into the present (on the basis of Spirit-given faith) is the very foundation of Christian assurance.
Daniel,
I'm hardly an expert on this topic, brother, but it is probably the "basis" language that gives Piper (and myself) so much pause with Wright's view. There is no doubt (and Piper would agree) that our final judgment will "accord" with our works - that is to say, our works will verify whether or not our claim to have believed in Christ was genuine - if our works (or lack thereof) demonstrate that our faith was fake, then the wrath of God abides on us (John 3:36); if they prove that our faith was real, we enter His glory. It's a judgment that "accords" with works; but that does not mean that it is "based" on works. To say that "justification is an end times verdict (based on the entire life)" is quite a different theology. Piper, and many others, wouldn't say that justification is "based" on anything other than the completed historical work of Christ. To say that Piper and Wright hold similar views seems to gloss over this very important difference. It may seem like splitting hairs, but I think these words really matter in this discussion.
Justin, thanks for the link.
JRH
Jeremey,
In that sense of the word "basis," we should also point out that justification is not based on our faith as well.
Agreed?
Daniel,
Yes, I would agree with that. I would probably say something like: we are justified "by" faith (Rom 5:1), or "through" faith (Eph 2:8); but not on the "basis" of it. When people speak about works or faith being the "basis" of justification, it sounds a lot like earning salvation. If I were to guess, this is precisely why Dever spoke about Wright's view of eternal assurance the way he did. Dan Chen commented that Dever "makes Wright's view sound like if you don't have enough good works than you won't be saved." If your recap of Wright's view of justification was accurate (I'm not familiar enough with Wright to know for certain), then it is no wonder that people get this impression from Wright. Whether or not he actually means "basis" when he says it is another issue. I personally have no idea.
Thanks Brother,
Jeremey
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