Ted Haggard
105 comments | PermalinkA Colorado Springs-based giant of the conservative Christian movement, with direct access to President Bush, stepped down Thursday as leader of the National Association of Evangelicals in the wake of allegations by a former male escort that the two had a three-year sexual relationship.The rest of the story is here.
The Rev. Ted Haggard also took leave as senior pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church he founded in his living room in 1985.
Haggard said in a statement he could "not continue to minister under the cloud created by the accusations."
He said he would step down to allow the church to carry out an investigation and so that he could "seek both spiritual advice and guidance."
His three-paragraph statement contained no denial of the allegations by 49-year-old Mike Jones, of Denver.
Jones, a bodybuilder and personal trainer, went public with a general claim of a sexual affair with a prominent pastor on Peter Boyles' morning talk show on KHOW radio Wednesday, but neither he nor Haggard was identified. KUSA's 9News first reported Haggard's and Jones' names Wednesday night.
Haggard, 50, initially denied the allegations, telling 9News Wednesday night that "I've never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I'm steady with my wife. I'm faithful to my wife."
But KKTV in Colorado Springs reported that New Life Associate Senior Pastor Ross Parsley told a meeting of church elders Thursday night that Haggard had met with the church's overseers earlier in the day and "had admitted to some indiscretions."
Parsley told the elders that Haggard had said some of the allegations were true, but not all of them.
Jones said on Boyles' show Thursday he felt compelled to come forward because he believes Haggard, an opponent of gay marriage, is a hypocrite. Jones said he received money from Haggard for sexual liaisons in Denver and that he witnessed Haggard using methamphetamine.
This is a deeply sad story. Readers should know that I do not want to engage in gossip, and therefore avoided posting on the story yesterday before it hit the national news.
According to the story above, Rev. Haggard has admitted to "some indiscretions." The temptation here is to speculate and to gossip, which really serves no purpose other than to satisfy our own curiosity and desire for inside knowledge. From everything I have been able to tell, the outside group of "overseers" of New Life Church are actively engaged in sorting through the issues (which will result in church discipline if necessary), and we should be thankful for that and allow that process to proceed.
How should we as Christians respond to such news?
The main thing I think we need to do is pray.
- Pray that the truth--no matter what it is--would be clearly revealed.
- Pray that if indeed some of these allegations are true (as New Life's senior pastor allegedly told the elders), that Rev. Haggard would be fully honest and submissive.
- Pray for Rev. Haggard.
- Pray for his family.
- Pray for New Life Church--both their elders and their members. Pray that biblical church discipline guidelines will be instituted and that this would not shake the church's confidence in the gospel.
- Pray for the accuser--that he would speak truth and that God would grant him repentance and grace.
- Pray for yourself and your pastor. "There but for the grace of God go I." Resolve to mortify all ungodly desires in your heart and to boast only in the cross of Jesus Christ.
Update: An email from Rev. Parsley to the congregation:
The full text of the e-mail follows:
From: Pastor Ross Parsley
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:00 PM
To: #New Life Staff
Subject: Update from Pastor Ross
Dear New Lifers and friends of New Life Church,
Many of you have expressed concern about today's news regarding our pastor. Thank you all for your prayers and support, and for your concern for our church family.
As you've likely heard by now, Pastor Ted has voluntarily placed himself on administrative leave as New Life's senior pastor to allow our external board of overseers to work effectively. Below is the statement that we released to the media on Thursday afternoon.
Since that time, the board of overseers has met with Pastor Ted. It is important for you to know that he confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true. He has willingly and humbly submitted to the authority of the board of overseers, and will remain on administrative leave during the course of the investigation.
I am serving as the acting senior pastor of New Life Church. I met with the pastoral staff and elders Thursday night, and I assure you that the leadership team is strong and united. We remain resolute in our commitment to serving New Life Church and the people of our community.
Please continue to keep Ted and Gayle and their family in your prayers.
I love serving God with you all,
Ross Parsley
Update: In this video Haggard denies having sex with Jones and denies using meth, but admits that he bought meth from Jones and went to him for a massage.
Update: The audio of one of the voicemails is now online.
posted by JT at Friday, November 03, 2006
105 Comments:
Thank you for your cautious comments.
I don't know what Ted Haggard really did or didn't do, but when a pastor fails, those who had trusted him are tempted to think that God has failed; that all the blessings they thought they received from that pastor were a sham. Instead, I'd encourage those disappointed people to think of all of the people who were blessed by Judas Iscariot. Judas went out with the other apostles, healing the sick, casting out demons, and preaching the good news of the kingdom. Judas himself was a fraud, but the blessings he gave were real.
I'm not saying that Pastor Haggard was or wasn't a fraud. I'm saying that even if we find out that the worst accusations are true, that won't mean that the blessings people received at New Life Church weren't real.
Justin, you are absolutely right! Let us not judge, but pray that the Lord would restore him and restrain us.
I echo Jim's comment. Thanks for the balanced post, JT.
It will be interesting to see how other evangelical leaders respond. I imagine it will be tempting to dismiss the allegations as politically motivated, given the timing of this story.
We as a Christian community should never forget that forgiveness and reconciliation are the very foundation of our beliefs. We as a christian community need to realize there are several of us sitting in pews, chairs, etc. that need to have the freedom to confess and be healed. We need to open more doors for restoration and healing. We need more accountability and less hiding so we can stay on the path toward holiness. What are you hiding today? Let's face it brothers and sisters we all need to fess up! I hope if this man comes clean and asks forgiveness from God and his congregation that he doesn't have to have some mandatory punishment period before he's restored as a contributing member of the body!
Justin, it's gracious of you to tread lightly in such an area. I'm grieved by the additional negative light that something like this throws on evangelicals in the eyes of the world.
But I'm not without sin, and what those who struggle need is grace, not judgment. May God be glorified, indeed.
Justin,
I echo others' thanks for your gracious, cautious approach to this situation. It's natural for our hearts to so quickly condemn, but it's better for our first reactions to be prayer, rather than gossip.
I couldn't find a better way to frame this issue, so I'm pointng our blog readers to your post: http://boundless.typepad.com/blog/2006/11/ted_haggards_si.html
Thank you for your helpful encouragement for how to respond to this.
And pray for Ted's accuser as well, who needs Christ, but who now will have a far greater barrier than ever before to seeing clearly and responding to that need. God's grace is amazing, though!
All of the comments above are true and good, but is anyone angry that this pastor has failed? If even one allegation is true (which he confessed is the case) he should be ashamed and forced to leave the ministry. Yes, there is forgiveness and redemption through Christ. But the questions need to be asked: how did he get to that point? How was able to live a lie? The bible says clearly that teachers of God's word will be judged more harshly than other servants. Ted Haggard needs harsh judgement and harsh consequenses that will humble and restore. He does not need to be coddled and felt sorry for. He needs to set an example of where Christians say "See this? This is wrong!" I'm frustrated with the touch-feely responses of evangelicals sometimes. Sin is sin. And the wages of sin is death.
Men, may our own hearts be guarded.
JT,
Excellent. Thanks for your wise comments and your call to prayer. It is exemplary.
May both grace and truth shine forth in this event.
BJ
Both Justin and Marla are right. Caution until more info is out, and pray as Justin encourages, but if the allegations prove to be true, Scripture does instruct us to hold him accountable, and not coddle.
Also, I'm inclined to think this is no surprise to see the National Evangelical Association's leader poised to fall. Ted Haggard had become a symbol of an Evangelical operation that rejects people like Wayne Peterson to lead the NRB because he wanted it to be less political. I loathe Greg Boyd's theology, but I have sympathy for some of his assessment that Evangelicals have forgotten their main purpose, which is not to chat with the Whitehouse on a weekly basis.
That this happens so often (to "big" names and "little") is the ongoing tragedy. If we are getting the facts; restoration is possible, but needs time. Forgiveness is commanded, but "don't do the crime if you can't do the time" street wisdom applies. As stated, we need to "guard our hearts" and do all we can and pray all we should that we'd not give the enemies of God cause to blaspheme.khggkck
Marla's right.
Yes, sin in others should humbly cause fear in us all rather than pride, yet clearly recognizing that this is a horrendous evil that tends to bring great shame and reproach on the church and the world's view of Christians and Christian leaders must be pressed home upon everyone, especially upon the man who committed such evil. There are degrees of sin, and I believe this is the type of sin that can cause many little ones to go astray in dismissing the church and its leaders as a bunch of corrupt hypocrites, so why bother. Full forgiveness is available through Christ, but there must also be deep true repentance and some accountability and consequences of discipline that in some way corresponds to the enormity of the sin, for the long-term good of the offender and more importantly for the good of the church overall and the glory of Christ.
In response to these situations, the church needs humility, fear, willingness to restore and forgive... but I believe much of our lack of righteous passionate anger is more a symptom of our modern evangelical softness and lack of biblical holiness and fear of God. The biblical righteous men of old would tear their robes in outrage and grief and fear for the entire community when something so heinous and reproachful of the glory of God had been committed within the community, and seen it as a clear sign of a need of communal repentance to avoid possible judgment and wrath of God on the entire community. I don't believe that emotion is limited to an Old Testament phenomenon.
If this is true, and I suspect it is, than I am glad Jones outed Haggard. Moreover, if he did pay Jones for sex not only should he be removed and disciplined by the church but he should go to jail as well (if such laws exist in Denver). If it were anyone else I would demand legal justice. There is no reason why we shouldn't hold the same standards of civil justice for other professing Christians.
Sorry.. just realized I didn't sign my previous post.
Jeremy Archer
Justin – excellent reponse!
In light of the comments about righteous anger and such, it is still important to first remember that we don't know what accusations are true (although none of them are good), so at least to that degree we should not be passionately angry yet.
Also, it seems that Haggard's response to this situation (in light of what I've read from various articles and sites) has been one of humility and submissiveness to authority. Yes, he could be guilty of a very serious sin against God, his family and church, but what I don’t see is a hard-hearted and stubborn man who has turned his back on God and thumbed his nose at the church, at least not any more than I myself have when I sin over and over again. That being the case, even if he is guilty, let’s first watch and pray that God grants him to continue with a humble, repentant and honest reponse to the situation. Second, while in no way condoning what has been done, let’s remember that a contrite and repentant believer isn’t primarily in need of being whipped, lynched or having his face rubbed in his sin.
Remember that when the woman caught in adultery was brought before Jesus and he was asked to condone her execution (quite lawfully too), he showed her mercy and compassion. She was not chaff needing to be burned, but a bruised reed. And we know how Jesus responds to bruised reeds, especially when they’re his children.
Again, if guilty, it’s a horrible public sin that should be lamented for the reproach it brings on Jesus and the work of the Spirit in the church. As I meditate on the incredible wrath of God against such sins though, I cannot help but stand in amazement at the form of a broken, humbled, beaten and crucifed man, hanging on a tree, who bore all the wrath that Tedd Haggard deserves for all his sins, and for all that I deserve as well.
Let’s be sure to honor Christ as crucified for the sins of his people in our response to this, both in how we think of Ted’s sins and ours.
Let’s show those who don’t follow Jesus in the public sphere and those in private conversation that we functionally understand the gospel, even when a believer publicly sins. If unbelievers know you, I trust they know how you feel about homosexuality. So I think a way we can honor the gospel of Jesus is not by turning the wrath we have for homosexuality against Ted in our conversations, but rather testify to how much Ted still needs the gospel as a Christian, just as you yourself do.
Finally, if we want to have righteous wrath against sin because of how it dishonors each person of the Trinity, let’s make sure we are showing it where it most consistently needs it first – in our own lives.
I don’t think that’s limp-wristed and effeminate evangelicalism. That’s the same gospel standard that we apply to ourselves in sin, our friends in sin, and that is honoring to Jesus.
-Andrew
Thank you Steve Prost for words of clarity.
I understand we must be ready to dispense grace, and let's wait to hear more facts, but our faith is marginalized when we fail to hold people to account. We should have forgiveness ready on our lips, but we also bear the sword of truth. When repentance is shown we should heap forgiveness, not before.
A warning should be taken from all this though. Many Evangelical leaders have set themselves up to be mocked for all the wrong reasons. They are not being mocked for the gospel, but because they have willfully made themselves objects of ridicule.
Thank God that we have any honorable godly men leading us. His grace is surely amazing.
You forgot to pray for the man that claims to have had sex with Ted. Of course, he does not matter though.
Anonymous-
Did you see this reponse?
"Byron said...
And pray for Ted's accuser as well, who needs Christ, but who now will have a far greater barrier than ever before to seeing clearly and responding to that need. God's grace is amazing, though!
11/03/2006 10:17:41 AM"
Have you prayed for him?
-Andrew.
I just pray that he's innocent.
I used to like Jimmy Swaggert until he started messing around with harlots. I admired him for his singing style. There are some that feel Jimmy has repented but it has hurt his ministry.
Let me finish the verse with which Marla ended her post: " . . . but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Mercy and love must be exhibited in this case, but such mercy and love include rather than preclude expulsion from ministry if the rumors are true.
Robert Murray McCheyne said: "The best of men, are men at best". The most we can do is hold Ted in our prayers.
I must confess, even though I consider myself an evangelical, I had never heard of Ted Haggard before this morning. After I read the story, I also watched the interview he had with Barbara Walters.
Other readers have expressed their ideas on grace and truth concerning the issue much better than I could. So no need to repeat what has already been said.
The other issue that is really bothering me is what I saw in the interview. When B. Walters asked him about salvation (she asked who goes to heaven), he responded that you are guaranteed to go to heaven if you believe in Jesus. However, he also implied that anyone could go to heaven (even without Jesus) but that Jesus was assurance.
Now don't get me wrong, I am deeply troubled by what is going on with the drugs/sex allegations. I will be praying for Ted and his church. Truth be told, I am praying for the entire Body of Christ in this country. But I am just as troubled by the fact that the pastor of a 14,000 member evangelical church cannot emphatically state that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
Just my 2 cents.
Michael
He seems to be handling this well.
Anonymity lacks sincerity and authority. I am challenged by this, as I am grieved for this pastor and his family and his church and the Church and the other man involved. I must admit, though, when former President Clinton had a moral failure I, along with a lot of believers was quick to ready the noose. I have repented of the fact that I did not pray for him, I made and laughed at inappropriate jokes about him. I pray that I, and other believers who have a bent as I do, will speak with the same balance of grace and truth if a tragedy like this occurs with someone we would not necessarily call "in our camp".
One again the hypocrisy blows the cover off another hate filled christian. Have they no shame at all? All I can say is HAHA. Liars get what they deserve.
What is so sad is that the church has allowed the issue of homosexuality to be a off hands subject, this attitude will only produce more examples like Haggard.
The answer to this lies in gods grace and Churches must began to support ex gay groups like never before, year after year church grous spend millions on other things they consider important yet ignore the elephant in the room.
Homosexuality is here and it exist in all power cirlces of the world, we must repond in truth and love but it also means lazy ministers must take this issue very seriously and work with groups who have been in the trenches for years, if not such a case wil happen at youre church.
Why is it that churches refuse to support ex gay groups?
Very little funding goes to them.
It is a shame!
Kathy
dem xtians,
It seems awfully hateful to say "HAHA" to someone who is going through what Haggard is. Wouldn't you agree?
It also seems to me, from the news releases that I've seen, that Haggard is ashamed. I appreciate the fact that he is talking with the press and not trying to cover it up and spin it as he very well might have. There are certainly spin doctors available for men in his position.
Nevertheless, I, like you, am very glad that he has been exposed, but clearly not for the same reasons as you. God will use this for his glory and for the good of his people. He works all things according to the purpose of His perfect will.
"One again the hypocrisy blows the cover off another hate filled christian. Have they no shame at all? All I can say is HAHA. Liars get what they deserve."
Laughing at a believer's tragic fall into sin? Making light of the horrific struggle his family will face over the next months and years? Rejoicing in the name of Christ being trod in the mud?
Have YOU no shame at all?
"Anonymity lacks sincerity and authority."
Well, at least in my case, I post as anonymous not because of a lack of sincerity but because of an overabundance of ignorance. I happen to be a 44-year old first time blog poster who has no blog and just learned he was an Arminian until he read Reformed Theology and The Holiness of God by R. C. Sproul and became a Calvinist. As a side note, this layperson is trying to work his way through James Boice's commentary of Romans. Unfortunately, I cannot seem to make it through Romans 3 without weeping over my own depravity. Therefore, I tried to make my comments as a sinner who has received God's unmerited grace.
My authority though comes from Scripture (of which I readily admit that Scripture is innerant, but my interpretation is faulty at best). Regardless, I still think that Scripture teaches we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone.
Listen to the interview. When I state that Ted Haggard taught a false Gospel, was I wrong?
Michael Sweet, Houston
Kathy,
I am intrigued by your comment about funding ex gay groups.
Why do they need separate funding? Come to that why do they need funding at all?
We don't have specially funded ex thief groups or ex adulterers groups or ex gossipers groups.
It is all sin and as such it is/should be dealt with in the same way as all truly repented of sin within the Church context.
As to Ted Haggard, well, I cannot add anything to what has already been said regarding grace etc, but I would suggest that he should be removed from any and all leadership roles (including even mid week house group, if they have such a thing) for at least 2 years before they even think about any sort of restitution and even then it should be started with the equivalent of leading maybe a small prayer meeting or a mid week house group for another 2 years at least and then slowly, very slowly back up the chain.
To some that may seem extreme, but he was a high profile Church leader caught in sin.
All of this of course dependant on a continuing attitude of submission to Church discipline and repentance for the sins involved.
If the allegations are true, this is simply a warning to all Christians that God is very merciful and forgiving but continual sin will not go unpunished. There are severe consequences and we have seen this scenario unfold many times before including with King David in the Old Testament.
A number of things are quite troubling. First: the pastor clearly LIED at the beginning stating he did not know the accuser (e.g., a la Bill Clinton); only when it was clear there was proof to contradict this did Ted then state that some of the allegations were true. Of course, I’m sure as more concrete evidence is found for other allegations, more confessions will come…sad but probably true.
Another odd thing about this story is that Ted stating he bought the drugs but never used them, and had a massage from a gay escort is a major red flag. Would a normal God-fearing person with a wife and 5 children be tempted at age 50 to do such things – out of the blue????
I think one key thing that many Christians forget is that “Satan goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour” and that we are commanded to “resist the Devil and he will flee from us.” You cannot play with fire and not get burned…there are consequences and it is sad that this saga appears to be a repeat of the same old story.
And yes God is merciful and we should pray for a full restoration for Ted; however, pastors and senior ministers are held to special standards due to their circle of influence and there is no way for them to operate in the same role once major sin has been found.
Glennsp above suggested that we do not need separate ex-gay groups outside the church. I agree. I am regularly tempted to homosexual sin, but God in His great grace has enabled me to remain pure. The main way God has used to help me, other than prayer and Bible study, is Christian fellowship with men who DO NOT struggle with the problem at all. There are several men who regularly hold me accountable with firmness but obvious Christian love and compassion. The friendships I have with ex-gays too often include a lack of that toughness which is so essential. Also, with these friends inside, not outside, the church, there is a sense of belonging to something far greater than me and my sin.
How about we allow scripture to guide us in how we are to deal with this situation.
Brethren, even if ANYONE is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a SPIRIT OF GENTLENESS(this eliminates a couple of the posters on here); each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work(has anyone went through this process yet and if not when you do please don't do yourself the favor of comparing yourself to Ted Haggard, but rather, the perfect obedience that the Lord requires of us, 99% some of the time does not make it, absolute perfection to His requirements all the time)you which can be found and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.
This is one of the saddest and most tragic things that can happen to a church family. To sit under someone who has taught you and you have respected as having honored the word and handled it appropriately - to trust him. And then to be informed that all of that trust was possibly misplaced. That is so painful for that church body, for the marriages that he counseled, for the men he was in authority over, and for every person sitting in the sanctuary, trusting that their shepherd was leading them rightly. How shattering for them.
I will be praying for that family. In reference to the comments on Barbara Walters, it does not surprise me. I knew a man who taught the word of God, preached holiness and stood seemingly without blame for a while. Later he seemed less inclined toward holiness and when a well-known pastor was fired for sexual misconduct his response was a shocking "That seems a little harsh, don't you think?" Later gross sin was revealed in his own life. It seems that when we stop taking a stand for holiness and truth in God's word it is an indication of sin being allowed in our lives.
The fact of the matter is that he is admitting to having purchased the drugs. Even if it is true that he never took the drugs, still, he had traveled down the path toward sin so far as to have located the means, covered his trail, and executed the initial step of purchased them. Even if he did throw them away, he had gotten that far down the path with no accountability or any other person having knowledge of his sin.
I will pray for the church, for the family, for the accuser, for Ted, and for all of us that we do not create for ourselves situations where we, also, have no accountability for our actions and no reverence for the holiness of God.
Evangelical chief quits amid sex scandal By KIM NGUYEN, Associated Press Writer
The Rev. Ted Haggard agreed to resign as leader of the New Life Church after its independent investigative board recommended removal, saying he was guilty "of sexually immoral conduct."
"We, the Overseer Board of New Life Church, have concluded our deliberations concerning the moral failings of Pastor Ted Haggard," a statement from the church said. "Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct."
A man describing himself as an escort told news media this week that Haggard, who also has resigned as president of the influential National Asssociation of Evangelicals, had been paying him for sex for three years.
Haggard immediately denied the allegations, but later acknowledged having paid the man for a massage and to provide methamphetamine.
The church's statement said the investigation would continue to determine how extensive Haggard's misconduct was.
The Rev. Ross Parsley will lead the church until a permanent replacement for Haggard is chosen, something that should happen by the end of the year, the statement said. A letter explaining Haggard's removal and an apology from Haggard will be read at Sunday services.
"The language of our church bylaws state that as Overseers we must decide in cases where the Senior Pastor has 'demonstrated immoral conduct' whether we must 'remove the pastor from his position or discipline him in anyway they deem necessary,'" the statement said.
"In consultation with leading evangelical and experts familiar with the type of behavior Pastor Haggard has demonstrated, we have decided that the most positive and productive direction for our church is his dismissal and removal," it continued.
James Groesbeck, a church elder, said he was glad the investigative board acted quickly.
"I'm saddened by what came out, but I think they've done their job," Groesbeck said by telephone. Church members are drawing strength from one another and are caught up in the activity, but that likely will change, he said.
"I think it's going to be really difficult in a week or two," Groesbeck said.
Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
It is good to see that the overseer board has acted quickly and dismissed Ted. Whether all the allegations will prove true or not, Ted's own admissions to date are enough to disqualify him for a leadership position in a Church (Titus 1:7). Ted and his family do need our prayers for repentance, and restoration through a spirit of gentleness (Gal 6:1).
1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Caution is commanded before men are accused, rebuke is commanded when the evidence is proven or when there is an admission. This is taught just as plainly as love and forgiveness. "unto whom much is given, much is required." This applies to all who are in authority and leadership positions in the Lord's work.
Michael, I simply believe that if something is worth saying it is worth putting your name behind. You have done that. There are others who troll blogs to make snide remarks with no concern for faith or the glory of God.
I certainly could have been more specific in my remarks and they obviously would not apply to you as you have, with a great amount of humility and sincerity made yourself known. Thanks for the response.
Chasebowers.typepad.com
It's ashame that our society makes Rev. Haggard feel this poorly about who he is. Everyone here has a gay person in your family. Some are probably gay themselves. Haggard knows he was born gay. Why would he "choose" to lose so much? He wouldn't! It's not a choice. The drugs are wrong and bad for his health. But keeping a secret like that wore on him and he turned to drugs to help the pain. That's bad and he needs to find a healthy way to deal with it. Bottom line: No one would choose to life everything they have worked so hard for. He needs our prayers and SUPPORT. But not because he is gay. Later
Judgement...a much hated word among those who call themselves christians. Why is that? It is always followed by the statement...we are all sinners.
That concerns me most. Isn't anyone living a life of holiness?
Once we have been filled with the Holy Spirit we have supernatural ability..living inside us.. to resist sin. That is no small matter. To live in a continual state of sin after that point is to frustrate the grace of God and invite His wrath.
I know people who do not live in willful sin, and I know I do not live in willful sin. That does not make me self-righteous...that makes me obediant. Something that is possible and commanded.
Where are all the obediant christians?? The gospel of grace and forgiveness needs to be tempered with the inescapeable qualities of judgement and holiness that exist in the character of God without seperation. Think not that you shall escape judgement just because you fail to wisely exercise it when necessary. In fact, God may hold you even more responsible for not removing and disciplining the shepards who corrupt the flock. The INNOCENTS who have been injured by this man Haggard- and MANY others- must not be forgotten. Their pain is real and matters to God. Do not forget them in your efforts to be forgiving to the perpetrators.
Those to whom God has given the most also have the most responsibility. Hold them accountable or share in their judgement.
This makes me shake in my soul...this is the message Ted Haggard delivered LAST week before this story broke. It is prophetic. He begins by praying that lies would be exposed in the upcoming week. The topic of his message is replacing a disobediant leader!!You have to listen to his own words about how God deals with a disobediant leader. I think that says it all.
http://www.newlifechurch.org/podcast.jsp
As a gay Christian man who has experienced a most painful break with my family because my "inapproopriate lifestyle would only cause pain" if I were to go to see them anymore, I was, at first angrily gleeful that Ted Haggard's indiscretions had been exposed. Then last night, I felt such a great sadness as, somehow, The Lord allowed me to step into his shoes ... and realize what a painful life his last 50 years have been as he has committed himself to hiding his homosexual orientation from the evangelical/fundamentalist culture that has identified his life. I have wept as I've considered the deep shame he must feel as a gay man who has spent so much of his ministry striking out at other gay people; out of his own guilt and the attempt to point fingers away from who he, himself is. Perhaps most sadly of all is the fact that out of the prism of what he has taught his church members, the vast membership of the NAE, and his own family ... they are only able to face this challenge in one way, and if there is any "love" or "mercy" involved it will be conditional. Ted has only two choices ... continue to lie, and ultimately be accepted back into the ranks of those he has long deceived, or be honest and find himself forever shut out from the only culture he has ever known. My personal assessment of Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism is that they are incredibly toxic religious movements utterly void of integrity and meaning in society. My prayer for Mr. Haggard and his family is that somehow they will be approached by and accept the merciful love of God through Christians who are not a part of that toxic movement, and that Mr. Haggard will finally come to a place of being able to accept who he is.
I am a New England liberal atheist. And I can tell you what this series of events has proven once again... I really pity you people that are so trapped in your blind, mindless, irrational faith, and so consumed with fears and restricitions imposed upon you by conditioning, and through a book written two thousand years ago (and itself full of contradiction). The fact that someone like Ted Haggard who obviously has homosexual impulses was so deeply in the closet that it had to come to this, shows how inhumane, how restrictive and psychologically damaging your collective delusional beliefs are. Furthermore, it proves that those who vehemently oppose something tend to be the most likely to be involved in it themselves. For examples in the last two months, just look at Mark Foley, look at Tedd Haggard. These people are despicable hypocrites, preaching one thing while living the opposite. And the fundamentalist flock of republican voting Sheeple that you guys are a part of are equally guilty, for suspending your rational thought, and going with your superstitious, idiotic beliefs instead, you have essentially reduced yourself to the intellectual capacity of 14th century peasants. Well guess what Sheeple? Its the year 2000, and we live in a democracy, so be as sheeplike as you wish, worship and pray and chant and speak in tongues as much as your heart desires. But do not try and impose your backwards, delusional sense of moral righteousness on the rest of the world. Stop using your flocks of fundamentalist sheeple to influence the politics of this nation. You will ultimately fail anyway. The majority will not live under your assbackwards rules, and someday you too will realize that all the leaders whom you look up to are just false prophets, full of lies and deceit. Be it Jerry Falwell or Tedd Haggard, George bush or Ralph Ried, Tom Delay or Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly or Fred Phelps.
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The problem with atheism, your Godless religion, is that it provides no hope; essentially a religion based on man doing anything he desires with no boundaries or absolute truths whatsoever; a system that brings destruction and diseases such as AIDS into the world when man defies God’s ordained laws and chooses to live only for his own desires.
What we have here is one man who has fallen; however due to his faith and the Christian community, he has the ability for full restoration with God’s power and grace. There have been millions of people changed instantly due to the power of God, from drug addicts, criminals, and people bound with lust as is Ted.
Atheism is a hollow husk and purposeless religion that brings nothing but despair and sorrow.
I too am saddened by the events of Ted Haggard. It would have been better if he had just admitted up front his failing. It's obvious that Mr. Jones timed his disclosure at the time of election. For those who want to write Mr. Haggard off, let's not forget that many biblical leaders suffered from moral and ethical failures and yet God still used them once they repented and turned their lives over to him. Remember, Moses? He killed a man. Remember David? He committed adultery and murder. And he didn't come out with his confession until Nathan confronted him. Remember, Peter? He denied Jesus three times. Remember Paul? He murdered Christians. I pray Mr. Haggard gets the help he needs. I pray that his family is healed from this tragedy and I pray that in the end God will be glorified through all this.
Everyone is saying Jones chose this time to reveal Haggard's double life because of the upcoming elections. At the service at New Life this morning, the oversight committee said that God chose this time to reveal Haggard's failings. I guess it is Goad that wants to influence the elections.
The tragedy of life and of the world is not that men do not know God;
The tragedy is that, knowing Him, they still insist on
going their own way.
-- William Barclay
A bit of food for thought to chew on until each of us "get it!"
Ted Haggard is a sex addict, and he should be glad that he finally hit his rock bottom. If he's honest and allows himself to be truly broken by these events, his healing can begin. There are many books on the subject (he can pick up anything by Patrick Carnes and it's going to be valuable), and there is a Christ-based, 12-step recovery program called Celebrate Recovery (www.celebraterecovery.com). I am a female sex addict, and I hit my rock bottom about 2 years ago with a very public arrest and conviction for prostitution. I am now a felon, my secret shame was made apparent to everyone, and I was forced to reveal my darkest side under the glaring lights of the media. Like Mr. Haggard, I didn't want to admit to everything all at once. I walked around for days, wishing the earth would swallow me whole. I admitted the truth in pieces--mostly because I did not want to hurt my children with the admission of my guilt. I realize now that the truth was already very apparent--my dodging the issue did not make it less so. Most addicts are allowed their anonymity, and usually hit their rock bottom, within the confines of their family and friends. When a public figure hits their rock bottom, or a person's private life is made public through an arrest, the only choice they should make is to face their demons honestly, openly, and quickly. Then you can begin to heal from whatever hurts, habits and hang-ups have led you to make such poor choices. I have no stone to throw--at anyone--ever. I wish him, and all hurting people who've screwed their lives up with their addictions--a speedy and life-changing recovery. Mr. Haggard, this too shall pass. My prayers are with you and your family. I've been there, and I've come through the other side. So will you. God is, and always will be, in control. And He will use this season in your life--He never wastes a hurt.
I feel sorry for Mr. Haggard. He obviously is gay and has spent a lifetime making money spreading fear and hate towards homosexuals such as himself. It is amazing by reading posts here that people do not see the obvious. Being Gay is not a sin, but lying, cheating, bearing false witness, spreading hate against the homosexual community might all be considered sins, if not so, then morally questionable. With all the problems in the world, it is hard to believe that the Christianists are so concerned about what others do in their bedroom.
Mr. Haggard's fall just reinforces the obvious, that Whatever one preaches hate against the loudest, is the part of themselves that they hate the most. To make things clear, whenever I hear people scream about homosexuals, I automatically assume that they are gay, but just hate themselves. This is a good exapmple of this. The Christianists will continue to make the same mistakes I am afraid. Their entire world is built upon fear, hate, power, greed, judgement of others and control. What a waste of millions of lives.
What a disgusting hypocrite to come out of the woodwork. What a 'repulsive, dark and dirty' individual to have been in charge of the National Association of Evangelicals. Oh, not because he is gay. But because in his selfish self-loathing he didn't even have the decency to rescue his boyfriend from a life of prostitution. What selfish and uncaring actions. Just another sad, pathetic homophobe bent on bashing gay people while reaching into their pants under the guise of Christianity. Jesus had little sympathy for hypocrites. This Haggard guy is poison and an embarrassment to the cause of Christ, hiding behind a loving wife and children.
'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
That is a pretty long list, and I must say, with contrition, that I am guilty of some of these. If the passage stopped there then I would be without hope, but it doesn't. It continues:
"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the same of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." - vs. 12
AMEN! That has been one of my favorite passages since I became a Christian a couple years ago. It offers hope to those who are hurting and who are struggling. Did you hear what it said? It said that homosexuals could not enter the kingdom of God. Then it said "and such WERE some of you." There is change and there is hope. god can wash you, sanctify you and justify you in the name of His son, Jesus Christ and by His Spirit.
There is hope for you and there is hope for Ted Haggard. God is still God and He is still on the throne. He CAN change and redeem anyone, no matter the sin. My very life is a testimony to His power in which to do that. He is able.
I'm from Colorado Springs, and my teenagers attend a lot of New Life's youth functions, though we do not attend that particular church. It seems a lot of Bible-believing, Bible-teaching, non-denominational churches around here are experiencing watching their leadership fall into sexual sin. "Falling into sin." Is that really how it happens? I'm a sinner, and every sin I have committed, I have done so knowingly and brazenly while thumbing my nose at the magnificent grace and mercy of Jesus Christ...taking for granted everything he did for me on the cross. I'm not sure I've ever "fallen" into sin. I walk straight into it eyes-wide-open. And guess what??!! I'm forgiven! Absolutely, our spiritual leaders are to be held to a higher accountability...and will face harsher judgment. Judgment by GOD....and God alone. We will never know if Pastor Ted is truly repentant, but we do know that if he is, then he is truly forgiven. Should he ever be in a place of ministry again? Probably not. Certainly not to the extent he has been. But that's not punishment...that's just plain, God-given common sense. Pastor Ted is guilty of more than being unfaithful to his wife and children while committing sexual sin with a gay man, and buying methamphetamines. He is also guilty of lying to and purposefuly deceiving a 14,000 member congregation, and (one would argue) an entire city. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Leaving out the homosexual component, as we should in order to focus on the disease instead of the symptoms, Haggard said he was guilty of pride, lying and deceit. That's more than enough to consider until you throw in the adultery. That it happened to be a male is of no consequence and shouldn't be. He has deeper issues regarding sin -- adultery being a pretty big one which God talks about a lot.
I do not know mr. Haggard, and I am grieved over his sin as much for his church's sake as for him and his family. These sorts of things spread condescension and breed more hypocrisy among local congregations.
In my most humble opinion, this is what happens to church leadership when it is separated from real accountability and right doctrine. Our churches (even the ones that use the Bible) do not show their congregants how to exegete the Word (if the pastors even know how themselves). Our churches are also not tied to history or the original languages of the Bible. All these things are important to provide a better understanding of and implementation of the Word. Still, even with all this, the best help to prevent sin is deep Christian friendships within the church with those who will hold us to a standard.
Some of the comments from non-christians on this post are, of course, meant to be inflammatory. You do indeed show your difference from Christians in your spiteful and malicious attitudes. That is a real shame. All of you seemed to have a great, and unfortunately all-to-common, misconception of christianity in general and evangelicalsim in particular. I suppose I do not blame you, as some evangelicals have a misconception about themselves. At any rate, we are committed to our Christ and to praying for you.
It takes substantial restraint not address some of the posts which precede mine. I can only hope that those readers who are earnestly seeking God will be able to discern the foolish posts from ones with merit; to discern those posts which dont contradict scripture from those which are riddled with error and twisted thought.
Some things to remember when thinking about Ted Haggard.
When the story about Pastor Ted Haggard broke, people around the country, perhaps the world, were shocked. But, God was not surprised.
The Lord knew the inner workings of Ted's heart long before the story seen the light of day. The Lord seen him in the comission of his sin, and loved him inspite of it.
Just as he does with all of us, somebody say Amen.
Ted was leading a ministry which God blessed and continued to bless throughout the time in question. That is because that ministry belongs to the Lord, as do all the believers in that church. His will be done.
God can use all things for his glory. This event is nothing new. The bible says "...there is nothing new under the sun..."
Has everyone forgot the difference between forgiveness and consequences in regard to sin?
Forgiveness comes with repentance. If you want consequences look in the Old Testament. I of course in no way advocate the suspension of scripture when dealing with a church member who has sinned. But truthfully, how many of you are in his congregation? They do have an overseer group to handle that. As for the worldly consequences of his actions, leave that to the legal system. We pay them to do it.
Why would any self-respecting Christian join forces with Satan the accuser in proclaiming before God that fact that Ted sinned?
All men (women also) have a weakness of some kind in their lives. Satan knows what it is, and he hammers every chance he gets. If you dont have much temptation in your life, then you are either staying very-very close to God, or you dont think your transgressions are sinful. I leave it up to you to figure out which it is.
To the person who said being gay is not a sin...true. But being active in a homosexual relationship is.
To the person who said "..preachers just spew out hate on the things which they most loathe in their own life...wow. Preachers should be speaking out on things that God loathes...so that would put your comment off the mark unless those preachers arent really men of God.
There were many lessons that people could have seen in the whole event with Pastor Haggard. Such as God will bless a person even in their sinful state. God will tolerate a sinful state only so long before you lose the opportunity to correct yourself.
Church leaders are the most vulnerable of all christians and therefore should be the most protected by the congregations they serve. A plethora of ideas could have been implemented to prevent this from happening, but none were, why? What can the Evangelical community do to create a safe environment for pastors to admit their temptations and seek help? The climate has been "if you are tempted then you cant be following God". Does anyone remember what happened to Jesus after the 40 days in the desert?
Okay, I apologize for all the wind. Hopefully it helps someone.
To God belongs all glory,
Robert Moore, Denver
I have reason to suspect that Ted Haggard may have been sexually and spiritually abused about 30 years ago.
Please ask yourselves what is Pastor Ted's sin? Is it being homosexual? No, his sin was being deceitful, and not living true to the way God made him. If he was true to himself, he would not have bore false witness, he would not have committed adultery, and I'm willing to guess that he would not have needed or wanted drugs. What is God telling us by blessing the church started by a homosexual man? Would Jesus condemn Pastor Ted for being openly gay?
None of this would have happened if the parts of the Body of Christ that think gay relationships are sinful could bring themselves into the 21st Century.
God gave us brains to use, and reputable scientists know that homosexuality is not a choice and is not curable because it is not a disease.
If it's not a choice, it cannot be a sin, because sin is predicated on making a choice contrary to God's will for us.
I know about the Leviticus verses, but let's not pretend we can pick and choose which to obey & which to ignore. The sin of Sodom was inhospitality. The Romans verses refer to pagan fertility-cult practices, and the Corithians verses are about weak character, not sexual orientation. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality and indeed, marveled at the faith of the Roman Centurion, whose young male lover He cured.
Despite all this, some still insist homosexuality is a sin and heap shame, scorn, rejection and judgement upon GLBT folk. It's no wonder they deny to themselves their true nature, and deceive others - like Ted Haggard did.
The solution is to embrace GLBT persons exactly as they are, exactly as God created them.
As a pastor, I am saddened by the recent news of Ted Haggard. I can only imagine the heartache his congregation is going through, not to mention his family and most likely Ted himself. I do believe that Ted Haggard suffers from a sexual addiction problem, something many men, according to Promise Keepers, suffer from but live in secrecy. I will pray for Mr. Taggard, his family, his congregation and his close friends. I will pray that whatever help he receives he will respond humbly and forthrightly to it - no matter how long it takes. I will pray for his healing, his family's healing and his congregation's healing. And I will pray that God will someday use this to bring glory to His name. Who knows, it could be that God could use Mr. Taggard, his family and his former congregation to help many a man or woman who suffers from sexual addictive issues (from pornography to using prostitutes) get the healing they so desperately need. Let this also be a reminder to many pastors (all men really) out there to build regular and solid accountability into their lives. I know I have and I am glad for it. The apostle Paul reminds us in I Cor. 10:12 "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!" Remember God is still on the throne!
It never ceases to amaze me how Christians are always cast as such hateful people. So far in this blog, non-believers have called Christians blind, mindless, irrational, hateful, hypocritical, inhumane, liars, cheaters...etc. The differences between believers and non-believers is shown so vividly here. How is forgiveness considered hatefel? Because we say something is a sin we're hateful? I've read nothing but encouraging, loving words written by believers who are truly praying for Ted Haggard and the state of not only his ministry, but the entire body of Christ...and its accusers. The doctrinal differences on this blog are apparent also...but forgiveness, grace, and mercy abounds. Just how is that intolerant and hateful?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. It's great to hear your balanced view but some didn't seem so graceful. The scripture teaches us that when a brother is overtaken in a fault, you who are spiritual restore him in a spirit of meekness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. I'm not saying that Pastor Ted shouldn't be disciplined, that's why he put the overseer model in place for times like this. I think what this entire deal reveals is that many of us have the potential to be in this very same place at any given moment. There are many other pastors and people sitting in the pews, on the choir, elders council, greeters, worship leaders, who struggle with different issues but an issue is an issue and we all need God's grace and love to set us free. Now to all the haters, I'm not saying that this should be an excuse to sin certainly not. Shall we continue in sin the grace may abound,God forbid. What I'm saying is that most of us have no clue who we really are anyway and that's why we need God's grace so abundantly, I think that if we sometimes took the air out of what people struggled with so that we could really help people so that we could really be free but there's this cloud in the church where people fear you really knowing who they are or what they struggle with for fear of being cast aside, again by no means am I saying that we should allow sin in the church but what I am saying is that we need to realize that God is trying to bring us ALL back to HIM. I wonder sometimes if Jesus came back right now, would He even recognize the church as a glorious bride. Love Covers A Multitude of Sin
As an atheist I am struck by the utter hypocrisy of some of the comments on this blog.
Lets stick to the facts here:
"pastor" Ted preached a homophobic doctrine of so called religious truths. He claimed the moral highground denouncing all forms of behavior that didn't conform to his narrow bigoted view of the world.
Now he is exposed as a total fraud. A lying cheating illegal drug using philanderer.
Perhaps the good citizens on this blog who are full of forgiveness and
tolerance of his acts should show some of their new-founded tolerance for all the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Gays and all other members of our society that don't fit into their "Jesus loves you" world.
I believe we are called to love, not judge. He who is without sin may cast the first stone. Just like Ted Haggard, we are all hopelessly lost without the saving blood of Jesus. We are all capable of enormous evil and are all in the same boat. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts us of Sin, we don't need to assume that role. God will be the ultimate judge in this situation as He is in all situations. We need not worry ourselves with punishing others--leave that to God. I believe all we are called to do in this situation is what I think Jesus would do--to reach out to Ted and love him, to pray fervently for the healing of Ted, his family and friends, his church, the evangelical community, and all people, including homosexual prostitues. We then need to do what we should be doing every day--showing and spreading the love of Jesus to those around us and making sure they understand that the sin of one man, no matter how distasteful, is not inconsistent with the Gospel message we are teaching. Rather, the sin of man is central to the Gospel message--this is just one example (a very public one) of the sin of man. God can and will make good out of this and other crises within the church.
Bob
I hope this unfortunate occurance opens the hearts and minds of evangelicals across this nation and they realize these calls and prayers for Haggard and the loving comments encouraging everyone not to judge him should be extended to everyone. God loves us all just the way we are, whether straight, gay, christian or non-christian. It's time for the judgmental right to humble themselves and stop pointing the finger at every one and begin evaluating their own lives. If you can forgive this man and reserve judgement, extend your compassion to include the rest of the world.
But can the religious evangelicals the "happy clappies" forgive anyone who is not a member of their exclusive little Jesus club.
I have a family member who is an evangelical. He assures me that as I do not accept his version of history (biblical) then I am doomed to go to Hell with all the other disbelievers.
But good old Pastor Ted...well he is guaranteed a front row seat in this little heaven of yours. He is after all so very sorry for being a total SOB.....
Such total nonsense.
There is NO GOD, no heaven, no hell, no holy spirit, no immaculate births, no miracles, no absolute truths, no certainties other than that religion is a man made creation
to control the masses.
As one who has attended New Life Church for 6 years, I'm frustrated by the urban legend that Ted Haggard hates gays. Ted has consistently preached the Bible's teachings on sexuality, which prohibit many different kinds of immorality, but he has NEVER said hateful things about gays. In fact, his stance has been that we as Christians should love gays, just not some of their lifestyle. Yet the constant drumbeat seems to be "kill the messenger." The bottom line is that God has directives for our lives, and Christians believe that as our Creator, He has the authority to give these directives. Others discount the authority of the Bible, and choose their own way. As conflicted as Ted was in his actions, I believe that he, at the core of his being, believes and loves God and his Word. He is doing right in trying to bring his life into line with God, and not just doing his own thing. God says he disciplines those he loves, and it would seem that Ted's situation now is a confirmation of that. The sermon two weeks ago was about Saul--how his disobedience cost him the kingship, and how you can be forgiven, but still must bear the consequences. He said, "Don't let your destiny be given to someone else because of your disobedience." Prescient-sounding words. Thanks to everyone for their prayers for all at NLC during this very painful time.
ColoSpgsres
Ludlow
Thanks for your comments. I understand your confusion. It doesn't make much sense and seems hard to believe that our faith allows for horrible acts and then forgiveness and salvation. Makes one wonder what our beliefs are based on. I have also questioned my faith and have definitely wondered if it was all made up to explain things or to give me false hope. But, I have seen and experienced too much in my life that can only be explained by a loving creator that is much greater than me and masterminded this whole thing--the world, life. Also, any time I have tried to walk away, He has, in amazing and mysterious ways, wooed me back. That can only mean to me that He loves me, that He is real, and that He is alive today. So, despite doubts, I am committed.
To answer your question, yes, I am called, as a follower of Jesus, to forgive anyone--believers and nonbelievers alike--especially my enemies. Whether Ted Haggard makes it into heaven doesn't depend on whether he does good or bad things, but, rather, on whether he accepts and trusts in the saving blood of Jesus. I know, too good to be true--almost too easy, but I believe and accept this with joy.
Bob
I've read Ted Haggard's plea for forgiveness for his indiscretion. Is he sorry that he's been living a lie or is he sorry that he got caught? Seriously, the man is in denial. Being gay is not a sin. It is a sin, however, to lie about your sexuality and judge/condemn those who accept who God created them to be and openly live a gay lifestyle. If God made you blonde, you can use hair color to fool the world but you and God still know that you're blonde. If God made you gay, you can say what the evangelicals want to hear and marry and have children and fool the world, but you and God still know that you're gay. We are all sinners, including Ted Haggard. The good news is that God, through Jesus Christ, forgives sin. It is my prayer that Ted repents and seeks forgiveness, not for being gay, but for deceiving himelf and so many others.
Jack Abramoff - guilty of 3 felony counts. Ralph Eugene Reed, Jr., (born June 24, 1961) is a Christian-right-wing Republican American political activist, best known as the first executive director of the Christian Coalition during the early 1990s. Reed is also a part of, and implicated in, the ongoing Jack Abramoff Indian lobbying scandal. Indicted or under criminal investigation: Scooter Libby - obstr of justice, Tom Delay -criminal conspiracy, Bill Frist - SEC, Duke Cunningham - bribery, Wyly brothers - tax evasion, Tom Noe - money laundering. What is the "culture of corruption"? And the list goes on and on. Who put these men into power? The Evangelical Movement and shysters like Rev. Ted Haggard. The worst offenders are the Evangelicals. Why? "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" ... John Lennon. Please drop this blind faith routine and read and think for gosh sakes. Educate yourselves! It's so easy to go to Church every Sunday and close your eyes and listen and blindly follow a Ted Haggard. But it's so blind. Read and think! Read and think! Educate yourselves! e.g. What is the Kyoto accord? Ted and his successors only offer you purple Kool Aid (Jim Jones). Turn away before it's too late.
I can honestly say I've never posted to a blog before and likely never will again, it's just not something that interests me that much. However, the Ted Haggard story has me conflicted on a number of levels. You see, I completely understand this man and, to some degree, I remember myself, as him, so many years ago. I grew up Catholic for 12 years and then was born-again into a fundamentalist Christian church. I truly believed and still today, I truly believe (however, I also believe and have studied about how there are areas that are indeed gray and possible misinterpretation through the years and translation of the Bible and I also believe that since God knows best there just isn't any possible way so many people in the world would be left out of that relationship). Fundamentalist believe there is only one way, one story, one narrow path to heaven, I'm not certain that the path might not be the same just with different language,wording, symbols.
As for Ted, I knew at 12 that I was gay and I had been taught all along it was a sin, an abomination, abnormal, ridiculed by society and shunned by God. There wasn't any place for me to live honestly and I hated myself for it. I prayed, I cried, I contemplated killing myself because death would certainly be easier than living with what I thought was the ultimate sin. It was only because I believed that killing myself would doom my soul to hell that I didn't. A Catch-22 of sorts but, one I'm glad existed because I'm still alive today, and I'm happy. I've found peace, and the grace of God and I believe that they exist because of God, not despite Him. I don't know how it happened other than to say after YEARS of hating myself there just came this feeling which I can only describe as something which had been given to me from God that it was ok. I believe, whole-heartedly, that yes, I was created this way and that God accepts me. I also did some research into the language used in the Bible and the possible interpretations of the few versus that describe what we believe to be references to gays and I believe there is some interpretation that could be made. I won't get into it here and I absolutely believe that I won't convince anyone on a blog but, I'm at peace with it. And if I'm wrong (and I do leave that possibility open, I am only human, I can totally be wrong)...if I'm wrong God will forgive me.
You'll probably never know the pain of what Pastor Ted went through/is going through. I understand. I'm enormously dissappointed only in that it just gives a bad name to the Evangelical faith, in the same way angry so-called Christians like James Dobson and Fred Phelps (please tell me you know who this man is and explain to me how he's allowed to call himself a man of God???) do. Ultimately Evangelicals are not here to judge, there one sole purpose is to lead more people to God, it's the only thing that's supposed to matter and yet it just seems they get mixed up in politics and things of this world that shouldn't make a difference.
Now I'm not trying to be political but, what's more important, stopping gay marriage, getting the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, or winning souls for Christ? I don't understand the distraction when the political thing becomes such a turn-off that it closes the minds to the people whose souls you are trying to open.
Ok...I want you all to know that I respect you and although I'm sure you probably don't understand how I can be a happy gay Christian man (who has been with the same man for over 12 years now), I pray that your pain over Pastor Haggard will be healed through God's grace.
It is interesting to me that those who claim there is no God are such authorities on God and God’s people. I have never met Ted Haggard, but I am familiar with his works. I too am puzzled as to why some people think that Haggard “preaches a homophobic doctrine…. …denouncing all forms of behavior that didn’t conform to his narrow bigoted view of the world.”
Here is a quote from “Christianity Today” from November 2005 that Ted Haggard made:
"We need to hear multiple voices in order to adjust our attitudes about things that are not absolutes," Haggard says. "We shouldn't shy away from discussions on substantive issues. We are citizens. We need to think and to let others think. We need the best ideas. We are the church. We have a responsibility to 6 billion people."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/november/20.41.html?gclid=CMfpmeafs4gCFQL7Ygodw0BzjA
That doesn’t sound to me like someone who hates homosexuals or has a narrow view of the world. Feel free to check out the whole article.
Ludlow, there is something I do agree with you on though and that is this, “…no certainties other than religion is a man-made creation to control the masses.”
Man-made religion IS based on fear, manipulation and control. Unfortunately Christianity is not exempt from this. But please read on for further enlightenment.
Bill, I agree with you, the Bible is a book full of contradictions.
Here is an example. In the Old Testament God says, “Do NOT sacrifice your sons and daughters” and yet in the New Testament God sacrifices His own Son. Quite frankly, I am glad there is this contradiction in the Bible. Without the sacrifice of Jesus there would not be a pathway to our Father God.
The difference in Christianity and man-made religions is this: With Christianity we have relationship with God, with man-made religion we have rules that are impossible to keep.
The relationship with God is this – He first loved us. THEN, he asks us to love Him back AND love one another. That is the whole of the Bible in a nutshell. Here there are no contradictions.
The problem with mankind is that we prefer rules to relationship. God is way more interested in our heart attitude toward Him than he is in our reputations. Exposing Mr. Haggard at this time IS God’s mercy and grace. Pride is the core issue, humiliation is the just consequence. I say this with fear and trembling because pride is an easy thing to revert to.
I am saddened by the whole affair and my prayers are with all concerned.
The Country Club Church Takes Another Blow!
The words of Christ were strongest when speaking out against spiritual leaders who were hypocrites. He constantly sided with the people who were offended by such hypocrisy (such as gay people must feel right about now after Haggard tried to drag them down with him and his 'dark' secret, adding insult to injury) and Christ NEVER sided with the hypocrites, who frankly, put him to death rather than hear about their piety, pride, selfishness, greed and other hypocritical acts being wrong. Most of what they did was in their hearts and only He saw it for what it was. That's like today, churches pretending there are no gay people in their congregations, hoping the issue will just go away, and lo and behold, it's the adulterous pastor! What a sad and ironic message to the Church, which isn't listening still, because they have to pray and play church, being all gentle and mysterious, which actually can constitute complicity. This guy has joined the ranks of Swaggart, Bakker and the rest of the clan that is building religious congregations at the expense of the hurting and downtrodden. Thank you, Jesus.
Happy Clappy Sheeple?? Oh please.
Ludlow...
This particular thread was started because of Ted Haggard, and has been meant to discuss him...not Jews, Hindus, or Muslims. As far as Jews go, I feel I can safely say most Christians believe they are God's chosen people. I'm not sure I've read a comment here spewing hatred about any of the above mentioned groups.
I understand some of the comments regarding feelings of anger and recognize them as a biproduct of grief. It grieves the whole Christian community when there is a failing in any one of us to this magnitude and even more so when it is through one responsible for leading others.
I too am grieved, however it is not our place to judge but to forgive and allow God to minister to this situation through those He has placed as overseers in church government.
Although my heart is grieved at the failing, it is encouraged by the wonderful expression of love to the Haggards in the midst of this tremendous trial.
I do not believe it is coddling to minister love in the midst of pain. It is obvious from the letter written by Rev. Haggard that he has been struggling for a long time and I don't believe for one minute that he has not struggled with these issues. God forgave Ted Haggard to moment he asked Him. I believe God calls us to do no less. Will there and should there be discipline? Absolutely, should we be angry, possibly, but we must remember not to sin in that anger.
Forgive, Forgive, Forgive, Pray, Pray, Pray, is what I believe the Lord is saying for this hour. In the times we live in there will be more and more evil exposed and all of us would be wise to walk in a way pleasing to the Lord not judging others.
It is not my intention to insult Christians with my comments. And I apologize if my remarks have offended anyone.
It can be difficult for an atheist and a religious believer to talk about religion in a meaningful way.
As an atheist I want facts, proof and logic. A believer simply has "faith". And that is often enough for him/her to justify all their values.
I do not doubt that Jesus Christ did live in Israel around 2 thousand years ago and that he was a popular leader and philosopher. However I cannot accept that he was the son of a God who performed miracles etc etc.
The bible is a storybook. Written by men to further a political and religious agenda.
Take the death penalty...In the USA most people subscribe to the old testament "eye for and eye" and support the execution of murderers. However many other societies (Christian and non Christian alike) do not accept the death penalty under any circumstances and often quote the scriptures to justify their opposing position.
To me the Ted Haggard case is simply a lesson in hypocrisy. He knew that he was lying to his congregation and deceiving his family. He just wanted to keep his job, position and place in the community. If his Church had been more tolerant to homosexuality then perhaps he would not have had to hide.
Protecting the sanctity of marriage?
The simple truth is that about 6% of males are born homosexual. It is not a sin, just a biological fact. Let this 6% of our society enjoy the same rights to marriage as heterosexuals enjoy and don't discriminate against them based on your religious viewpoint.
Live and let live. Tolerance, acceptance of diversity, respect for others....now that is something I truly believe in.
Ludow – thank you for clarifying your position. You are right, if there is not agreement on the source of truth it makes it very difficult for Atheists and Christians to dialogue.
Can you agree that it is a scientific fact that it takes a sperm and an egg to produce an embryo? In the Bible it says God created man and woman, specifically designed to produce a child. Nowhere does the Bible say he created homosexuals. I am curious, where do you get the information that 6% of all males are born homosexual?
I believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. Just as some heterosexuals choose to live together without being married. Choice. Live and let live. That is between them and their god.
Because someone has chosen a particular lifestyle, that does not give them the right to redefine family. One man, one woman, one child.
Ted Haggard made choices as well. He choose to commit adultery (if the allegations are true) and that with another man. I don’t understand it, but it doesn’t make it more heinous than any other failure. As I stated above the core issue is pride.
The definition of pride is looking out for your own interests and not considering others. Humility is the opposite of that – caring for others before yourself. In the Bible there is a scripture that says, “What does God require of man? But to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly before God. In the Christian world if we put God first in our lives and walk humbly with Him, we can walk humbly with one another.
As far as Haggard being a hypocrite? Welcome to the human race. Aren’t we all?
PS - I didn't mean to imply that those living an alternate lifestyle couldn't know Jesus Christ. I should have said, "that is between them and God if they so choose to believe."
We do live in an amazing country and we do take our choices for granted.
Muriel- Thank you for your comments.
It is a well documented fact that a certain percentage of individuals are born as homosexuals. There is substantial imperical evidence for this. Just speak to a few gay men and you will see that their sexuality was not so much a personal choice as a physical fact of life.
Yes. It is absolutely true that human reproduction requires male and female DNA. All living things must reproduce and require DNA or in plants RNA to complete the cycle.
Evolution is based on a continual refreshing of the DNA with every generation. This is the basis of evolution and is not in dispute.
Humans evolved through this continuous process. After all Muriel you share 92% of the DNA of a mouse and 99% of a chimpanzee.
Unfortunately your assertion that "God did not create homosexuals" means little to me as I do not believe in the existence of God.
However I do feel that the teachings of Jesus Christ would not have discriminated against gays. His was a tolerant philosophy.
The anti gay sentiments of most religions are based on the argument that we should go forth and multiply to ensure that the religion (tribe) continues on down through the generations. And of course homosexuals cannot reproduce.
Even today the Roman Catholic church fiercely opposes any form of birth control even though they know the misery this causes to the millions of children born into abject poverty.
But it is all about creating more Catholics and not about child welfare.
I respect your faith in your chosen religion and your trust in those who preach to you.
But please do not think that your chosen religion is the "best" or the "only true path" etc etc. Don't Muslims believe that their religion is the "only true faith"
There is no absolute truth just a world full of diverse ideologies and cultures.
The Christian religion was spread often by invasion and war. The traditional holidays of Christmas and Easter were based around pagan holidays in the UK by the first missionaries who arrived there around 400AD. The resurrection from the dead was well known in several religions of the time and was not unique to Christianity.
The early missionaries often adapted the gospels to suit local traditions and to gain acceptance with the locals at that time. Better to change the story then lose ones head!
So please follow the positive beliefs and traditions of your church but please also accept that you don't have the answers and that Christianity is merely an evolved religion over 100 generations.
Good luck to you.
Regarding the ocmment about welcome to the human race aren't we all hypocrites...uh, no, we aren't. That is why this is an issue. We aren't all habitual liars either. Christ convicts on these issues and if we learn from them we mature and as David Seaman's said in his book on Paul's verses, we 'put away childish things.'
Maturity comes to those who have been tested by good and evil (Hebrews). Sorry, but this doesn't happen in a church pew or in a church pulpit, ever. It happens on the street and in the heart of the one living out the Christian walk when walking alongside the ones God seeks to touch with his love and understanding, not with condemnation.
You may be a hypocrite, but I am not. My life is transparent and honest, my language and speech are the same. Just as God hates a lying tongue, so do I, and I live by that precept. I also have to be honest with myself in recognizing that I do not meet heterosexual standards for orientation in this life, whatever the cause or root of it. God loves me and receives me nonetheless, and the guarantee of Christ exists in me as in any other true believer.
Christians need to move out of Romans 2 and get with God's program. When they point the finger at the reprobate idolators in Romans 1 they are equally as guilty in God's eyes because they do it in their hearts, or we wouldn't have -- or need -- a Romans 3. All of us have our initial being before God in Romans 1 or Romans 2, though the people in Romans 2 cannot see their sin as readily as they can in Romans 1, which makes the people in Romans 2 much, much scarier and culpable in the end.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but the people in Romans 2, once redeemed, still point the finger at the ones redeemed from Romans 1 as something different from themselves. This is nothing but silly self-righteousness, and the root of homophobia and similar related problems which have played into translations and their subsequent condemnations for way too long now.
That is why we are at oods with one another, to get these truths out in the open, where Ted Haggard now has an opportunity to take a stand for what is right, now that he has been exposed for what he really is, before the entire world. Or he can continue to play church.
Ouch! About all being hypocrites, I meant to infer that we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Hypocrite is one of those inflammatory words that get thrown at Christians and I was just trying to point out that none of us are capable of “casting the first stone”. I was trying not to use “Christianize”.
Ludlow – I am impressed with your knowledge of history and I won’t refute your conclusions. On the matter of being “92% of the DNA of a mouse and 99% of a chimpanzee” I beg to differ with you. I am well aware of the fact that I am made up of natural compounds that come to less the $5.00, but a chimpanzee? Anyway, creationism vs evolution is a whole ‘nother issue. Probably best discussed on a different blog. If you are interested there is a book called: “Creation As Science: A Testable Model Approach to End Creation/Evolution Wars” by Hugh Ross. I haven’t read it personally, but I hear it is a fair book. (Thanks for reminding me that I don’t know it all! Sometimes I forget.)
Mr. Honesty, you said “Sorry, but this doesn't happen in a church pew or in a church pulpit, ever. It happens on the street and in the heart of the one living out the Christian walk when walking alongside the ones God seeks to touch with his love and understanding, not with condemnation.” I couldn’t agree with you more. In fact, I believe Ted Haggard would agree with you as well. Just because he struggles with soul issues doesn’t mean he doesn’t have compassion.
I will re-read Romans 1-3 with your comments in mind.
So, if Ted Haggard follows his homosexual tendencies that would be the “right thing”, but if he chooses to honor his marriage vows and stay with his wife and children that would be “playing church”? That is a rock and a hard spot.
Ludlow – I happen to agree with you that Christianity is evolving (as cultures & society change so must the church) – this next evolution will be very interesting. Christ on the other hand never changes – His words/works of compassion are still true today.
Muriel,
As religion evolves I earnestly hope that the views (and beliefs) expressed by the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell become extinct.
It is difficult for many people (including me) to respect evangelicals and their churches when you tolerate these bigots claiming the moral high ground with their venom.
I am convinced that the whole 700 club style of religion will be in the dustbin of history real soon,
How long before they are "excommunicated" depends on the voices of common sense within your community. Your responsible leaders must speak out.
It is important that the 700 clubbers are not allowed to so vocally represent Christianity.
To me Falwell is a Christian version of one of those mad Mullahs and Imams that have hijacked Islam with their hate.
Mr. Haggard will rapidly fade from memory and in the scheme of things his actions are not important.
Religious history is full of such stories. In the 15th century the pope instructed his bishops in London to give up control of the brothels they openly operated on the south side of the river Thames. The bishops were not happy as they needed the money raised in the brothels to support their churches!
But hate and intolerance have no place in any true religion and must be eradicated from your religion as soon as possible.
good luck
Muriel, Ted Haggard is playing church when he denies the people that he has secretly sided with their dignity as fellow human beings, and instead makes all kinds of platitudes and innuendos that reference them as something not quite human enough to deserve equal rights, and then stands behind a pulpit or hides behind his wife when spewing forth such poison.
And I wasn't referencing him in my bit about maturity.
You seem to have the imporession that all homosexuals are sexually active when they are not. Many are committed in relationships, many raise otherwise orphaned children, and many are celibate. The important thing is that they are honest with themselves and not pretending to be something they are not, despite any hate that may result from them being so honest.
Christians don't seem to realize that had they given gays the basic human rights they deserved when their loved ones were dying in hospitals from AIDS, things would not have come this far to where they now seek marriage in order to obtain those rights. Personally, I see marriage as a tarnished cup due to the high level of infidelity and divorce that have infected it.
I think gays committed in lifelong relationships should strive for something more noble than marriage, something less tarnished and less prone to abuse, in their attempt to get their fair share of the rights afforded people who are married.
Muriel .. to another person posting you wrote: "So, if Ted Haggard follows his homosexual tendencies that would be the “right thing”, but if he chooses to honor his marriage vows and stay with his wife and children that would be “playing church”? That is a rock and a hard spot." I had a friend who was gay and in a heterosexual marriage ... I asked him once "how do you DO IT ..??? I mean it's not your orientation ... you're gay!!!" His answer to me was "I just close my eyes and think of a sexy man". Muriel .. I don't know what you are, but assuming that you are a heterosexual woman .. would you say that if your husband is performing ... while thinking of a hot sexy man ... would you say that is being faithful? I frankly think that women married to Gay men .. and men married to Gay Women deserve better .. and I feel the same way about Gay men married to hetero women. My 41 years in the Evangelical/Fundamentalist movement showed me that its all about APPEARANCE .. but honestly, is that really living? How would you feel if you were sleeping with a gay husband, Muriel, who you know finds men infinitely more attractive than you? Is that integrity? Is that honoring to God? Think about it.
Stone throwers are a dime a dozzen.
Jesus said:
Where are your accusers.
The prostatute said their are none sir.
Neither do I condem you Jesus said. Go and sin no more.
Consequence is real. Forgiveness is devine. If I can forgive the man who killed my 19 yrs old son, I can forgive Ted Haffard.
The man that killed my son is serving 17 to life. I am sure that Ted will need all of God's grace to move forward and sin no more.
I don't have any stones to throw.
Anyone who is honest with them selves don't either.
Wow – where do I start?
First of all I will admit that I am a recovering homophobe and have little to no knowledge of the homosexual’s struggle. But I want to understand. And yes, I was aware that some homosexuals choose celibacy of which I have the utmost compassion. My husband died in 1995 and I have been celibate since that time. Frankly, if I were not a Christian and single I would not choose celibacy at all.
Secondly, about three years ago I was in a fellowship where the pastor was removed from his position. That is a “rug pulled out from under you” experience that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. From that experience I decided that I needed to examine what I truly believed verses what I was taught by another person.
In an earlier post someone used the term “sheeple”. I thought that was a very imaginative and accurate description. It made me smile. As those who have read the Bible know, believers are referred to as sheep. We need to be careful that we do not take the illustration too far. Sheep do follow a shepherd, but nowhere in the Bible does it say, “If the shepherd falls off a cliff you are to follow them.” We need not be lemmings. We should read and ask God to speak to us from Scripture on our own, so that we are following the True Shepherd and not mere mankind.
Someone else used the term “happy, clappies” in referring to religious evangelicals. That too is an excellent term. When we continue to “play church” and by that I mean, come on Sunday morning and smile at the person next to you in the pew, but never finding out what is going on in their life or share what is really going on in your own life, we are play acting. We put on a happy face and clap to the music as if our hearts are alive and well, bless Jesus. That is a reality in churches across the nation and we need to examine that model. What better time than this?
I am studying “The Message” as my current translation of the Bible. I choose this modern version carefully, so that I would not automatically revert to my past understanding of Scripture, but see it from a fresh perspective.
I read Romans 1-3 this evening. When you take the three chapters in context it is saying one thing: God’s plan is to save Jews first (because they had the only written Word of God at the time) and then include the rest of the world. If you trade the true God for one made of wood or stone (an idol) you will fall into debauchery. The good news is: “The person in right standing before God by trusting him really lives.” Rom 1:17 I do have to point out that it does say in verse 1:27 “Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men – all lust, no love. And then they paid for it…emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.” In context idol worship is the sin that leads to being “emptied of God and love.” I will leave it at that.
How would you feel if you were sleeping with a gay husband, Muriel, who you know finds men infinitely more attractive than you?
Sex does not equal love. If I were married to a man that had homosexual tendencies I would hope that the reason we got married in the first place is because we loved one another. By love I mean honor, care and preferring the other. I would hope that my husband would love me as a person. If my husband could not be present with me in the sexual act I would hope that we could openly discuss that and come to a mutual agreement. If he chooses to leave I would release him. Sexual orientation does not have to dictate whether someone leaves a heterosexual relationship or not.
My point about Ted Haggard being between a rock and a hard spot still stands. I don’t think if he chooses to honor his marriage vows would mean that he is “playing church”. It would mean he loves his wife and family and would sacrifice for them.
My prayer for the Haggard family is that they would have open and honest dialogue, that they would remember their first love and that they would come out on the other side whole people. I have no idea what that will look like.
many people that love Ted are talking about not condemning, forgiving, everything positive to restore him to God. I personally more angry with him because of his hypocrisy than someone who is at least honest about their lifestyle. I am against any and all sin. Homosexual perversion is sin, but why can't you be this forgiving and loving toward those Satan also has deceived in the gay lifestyle?
Maybe if we Christians were more understanding that Satan has these gay people bound and pray for their release then we might see more people turning to the Lord.
Meme_
Are you for real?
Gays are possessed by Satan....
You are living in the 16th century.
Call me crazy, but I do believe that we are in a battle. Good vs Evil. God vs Satan. But I don’t believe that those who embrace the homosexual lifestyle are possessed or troubled by Satan any more or less than the average Christian. We are human; we all face the same battles.
As far as homosexuality being a sin – I am not as convinced of that as I once was. If it is a sin it is not a greater sin than any other.
I recently watched a video on You Tube of Woody Allen interviewing Billy Graham. Woody asked Billy Graham what the worse sin was. Graham said in effect, “In God’s eyes they are all the same.” Here is the link to that: http://youtube.com/watch?v=a6iAaxOAHCM, sorry you will have to cut and paste the url – I am slightly techno challenged. It is actually a very funny and refreshing exchange between an agnostic and an evangelist, probably early 70’s but timeless none-the-less.
What I have had to do is examine my own attitude toward people who live differently than myself, be they homosexual or from a different culture/country.
My attitude, whether it was fear, judgment, arrogance, lack of compassion, misunderstanding (depending on the person/situation) was way more diabolical than their perceived “sin”.
If we say that we forgive Ted Haggard without examining our own heart attitudes we are missing an opportunity to change and grow for ourselves.
Muriel your comments make my head spin just like that girl in The Exorcist ... good grief maybe the Fundies are right .. we are all demon possessed but them. Anyway Muriel, I wont comment much on your ... wild theories, other than to say PLEASE dont degrade people by using such a stupid term as "The Homosexual" .. if you were talking about African Americans would you say "The Negro" .. or Jewish people would you say "The Jew" .. it just sounds really stupid, and I would ask that you dont use such idiotic sounding phrases. Thank you.
Very interesting dialogue coming out. Muriel and Meme seem to at least be thinking the matters through, acknowledging any shortcomings, which is encouraging. Some of us have spent our entire lives working these issues out, trying to be honest with ourselves yet pleasing to God, so don't be too hard on yourselves if it doesn't all make sense in one fell swoop.
Muriel though I am disappointed that you didn't comment on the people in Romans 2, why they follow Romans 1 and why we need Romans 3. You kinda stuck on the clobber verse in R1 and didn't address the clobberers in R2 at all. Makes for a lopsided story, almost felt like I was getting a translator's notes, but I trust not.
Ted Haggard, if he hasn't produced an apology to gays yet, owes the gay community which he has grossly offended in several serious ways a public apology, not just an apology to his church and other Christians, that's a cop out.
Wow, tell me the NAE hasn't gotten all pharisaical and self-righteous claiming what happened to Haggard -- namely eggregious sin -- is an anomaly!!!
Who needs to be ostracized when one has friends like this? Might be even more distasteful and hypocritically disgusting than Haggard's act:
NAE Distances Itself from Haggard Incident
Of all the people who should be showing him compassion it's these guys who are instead running scared.
Mr. Honesty ... if you will look at the history of the Evangelical and Fundamentalist movements they have ALWAYS come from the paradigm of fear and reaction rather than love and response. The reaction of the NAE and even James Dobson in backing away from his "counseling" of Ted Haggard is not surprising to me in the least. As far as Ted Haggard offering an apology to the Gay Community .. I think the man is fighting for his life right now. I mean, he hasn't even yet been able to apologize to himself for having lived a lie for these 50+ years in order to fit into a world that will never accept the true Ted Haggard. I've talked with so many fine gay people who would love to have an opportunity to sit down and talk with him, but in his insulated world that seems very unlikely. A friend who survived the "ex gay" movement said to me that "When people are unable to integrate all of who they are ... the only option is to dis-integrate". It's happened to so many countless others. Let's pray that Ted Haggard is brave enough to integrate. He has so little to lose at this point.
I'm confused. Many people on this blog seem convinced that Ted Haggard is gay and has been living a lie for the past 50 years based on the recent disclosure of his actions. Why does hiring a gay prostitute define his sexuality any more than being married to a woman for 30 years? He has obviously engaged in heterosexual sex, as evidenced by his children that I presume are his and not adopted. In fact, he has probably had much more heterosexual sex than homosexual sex (just a hunch). How can one determine what his real sexual orientation is from these facts alone? At best, all one can say is that he has apparently chosen to be sexual with a woman most of his life, and a man at least in past few years. Any other conclusion is purely speculative.
EpiscoWill – Sorry, I didn’t get the memo on the new usage of the word “the”. My faux pas was not intended to degrade anyone.
While we are on the subject of grammar usage – I do take exception to your use of ALWAYS. Is it true that ALL Evangelical and Fundamentalist movements in EVERY circumstance come from the paradigm of fear and reaction rather than love and response? Dare I point out that that appears to be judgmental?
Mr. Honestly – I am very interested in the rest of Romans 1-3 and especially what you have gleaned from it. I only stuck on the clobber verse because it was interesting to me that the sin being addressed was idolatry not homosexuality. That definitely got me to thinking. I just didn’t think this was the place to expound further on it. My intention is to finish setting up my blog and taking it from there. Hopefully this weekend.
Here is the paradigm I am coming from: Homosexuals can’t be Christian because they are sinners. Now THAT is a stupid statement, but it was one I used to adhere to in my ignorance and unbelief. Now I believe that Christ has taken up the cause of ALL sinners – not just me.
Here is something I read this morning from Isaiah 53:12, “He (Christ) took on his own shoulders the sin of the many, he took up the cause of all the black sheep.”
I couldn’t help but notice all the “thes” in that statement (now that I am aware there is a new grammar law), but this is a direct quote from "The Message". I just hope that all “Black Sheep” aren’t offended in being referred to as “the” Black Sheep! (Sorry, just trying to bring a little levity to the situation.)
About the NAE and Dr. Dobson distancing themselves from Ted Haggard – I see that as a good thing, not necessarily that they are turning their back on Ted at all. Perhaps God is in control and He wants to get Mr. Haggard alone to sort a few things out.
What I am praying for is open dialogue. Isn’t it about time we “buried the hatchet” so to speak and begin being kind to one another? I don’t think we have to all agree, but we do have to treat each other civilly.
As stated above by Ludlow: “But hate and intolerance have no place in any true religion and must be eradicated from your religion as soon as possible.” Hear! Hear!
Bob – thanks for your comments – I can’t assume that I know what is going on In Mr. Haggard’s heart at all.
Bob ... Your naivite is mind boggling. In your simplistic world do people only become heterosexuals when they engage in sexual acts? Do people only become homosexuals when they have sex with someone of their same gender? Ted Haggard, himself, has spoken of this "dark secret" that has hung over his life for the past 50 years ... What, in the name of common sense, would you suppose that "dark secret" to be? My Mom is 92 years old and she hasn't been in bed with a man for at least the last 20 years .. has she ceased being a heterosexual? In your freakiest moments .. would you spent several years of your life having sex with a man (even if you paid for it) if you weren't gay? As a gay man, I sure as heck wouldn't be seeking out a woman for sex . for free or for fee. I'm sitting here shaking my head at the mind boggling stupidity.
Muriel ...
Yes, I do mean that the Fundamentalist movement(okay I will cut the evangelicals some slack since not all of them are fundies) was founded entirely on FEAR and REACTION, and yes I do mean ALWAYS .. because it was only founded once. I have never met a fundamentalist or seen a fundamentalist church yet that didn't have as it's very foundation FEAR and REACTION. The opposite of those words are LOVE and RESPONSE, and Fundamentalists are anything but that. As far as Evangelicals, some of them are intelligent people, and the gamut of evangelical belief is wide enough that there are those who operate out of love and response. A good example of that would be Billy Graham .. who was called by the Fundamentalists a "Communist" because doors were opened to him to go into Russia to preach.
On a less confrontational note, I applaud your willingness to take a more careful look at Romans 1-3. That passage has nothing to do with homosexuality per se, other than the homosexual/bestial and yes heterosexual acts that took place in the Roman Fertility cults that existed at that time. Romans 1 and 2 are all about bringing both Jew and Gentile to Christ .. and chapter 3 brings it all together.
Wow!!!!!!Episcowill. I am shaking my head at your mind bogglingly arrogant, condescending, and insulting comments. They don't even deserve a response.
Bob, I suppose that your non response is what a person does when they realize there is no justifying such remarks.
Hmmmm…, maybe its time we held hands and sang the chorus from the Joe South classic, “Walk A Mile In My Shoes”!
“Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes,
And before you abuse, criticize and accuse,
Walk a mile in my shoes.”
Here is a link to the lyrics (being crooned by Elvis Presley).
www.barb-coolwaters.com/e001/walkamile.html (Sorry, I still haven’t figured out how to make these links live – maybe I could get a lesson from Mr. Honestly.)
At any rate, the lyrics are very thought provoking. Just goes to show that maybe we weren’t all reprobates in the 70’s. Maybe someone will do a remake.
I understand Bob’s confusion – his comments make perfect sense to me. How can we assume Ted Haggard has been living a lie all these years? We don’t know all the facts.
And yet EpiscoWill made some valid points – I certainly wouldn’t have thought of asking those questions, but here again – I haven’t walked in his shoes.
EpiscoWill – When you said, “Fundamentalist movement” for some reason I was thinking programs. Most churches have outreaches of some sort that do “good works” and so you can’t lump them all together. However, now that I know you mean how they were founded, I will have to defer to your knowledge of their history. I am unfamiliar with that movement. However, I have to ask, “Are you just a tiny bit angry at them?”
Billy Graham a Communist? We do love to label people now don’t we?
Muriel .. Your little song reminds me of years ago when the Jesus Movement was going on .. and someone came SCREAMING out the door of the church to my friend Charlie and myself that we were "destroying the Presence of God" in the church because Charlie and I (Their Pianist and Organist) were .. GAY. I mean this guy was letting his voice be heard by ALL neighbors, near and far. My Blonde (of course she was blonde) friend Phyllis said (hoping to be a happy clappy voice in the midst of it all)"Why don't we all go over to my place and go swimming." Oy!!
Anyway, if Bob is 12 or so, I will give his naivite some room to breathe .. otherwise .. I think its insane for anyone to THINK that a person's sexual orientation has anything to do with what they DO, rather than to whom they are attracted. Good grief, am I the only one who thinks like I'm beyond Middle School age??
If you really have any interest in the Fundamentalist Movement, I would offer you the book STEALING JESUS: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity by Bruce Bawer. I believe you can find it at Amazon, or for a very good price at half.com.
Angry at Fundamentalists ... I honestly try to seperate the people from the movement .. in other words be disgusted with what the Fundie movement is about, while realizing that the people in it are, like me, just trying to be faithful to The Lord and serve Him according to the light we have. My feelings and why they are what they are go much deeper than this limited space, so I will simply agree with you that yes I am angry .. more likely disgusted .. and even most likely disgusted with myself for having spent so many years of my life in a movement that is so toxic and self serving. A movement where I, a pretty intelligent human being, tried to fit ... all the while knowing it was a world that was utterly alien to who I am as a Christian.
First, all of you seem to be assumimg that a male human is either totally and completely heterosexual or totally and completely homosexual. That is a falacious assumption refuted not only by modern research and contemporary anecdotal evidence, but also by historical writings, particularly from the Greco-Roman world. I believe the term that can be used if permitted by the political-correctness police is Bisexual. This means that there are men who are sexually attracted to both men and to women. Imagine that.
Secondly, as I have stated in a previous entry, I have reason to believe that Ted Haggard may have been spiritually and sexually abused about 30 years ago. As the testimonies of many such victims has revealed in recent years, such abuse can produce enormous confusion in one's sexual and spiritual identity.
If this proved to be the case for Ted Haggard, he is to be pitied more than reviled. Has he sinned? Yes. Can he be forgiven? Yes. Can those from the evangelical and from the "gay" community forgive him? Only you know the answer in your own hearts.
Let's drop all the religious talk and the pseudo-psycho analyses. Ted Haggard owes the gay community a sincere apology for trying to take them down with him, and denegrading them in his speech in his failed attempt on personal justification. Whether he was abused at age 20? is not what is at issue AT ALL, and does not relieve him of his responsibility to his family, and those he defrauds or may have defrauded while persuing hidden, pleasurable, homosexual encounters.
I have mentioned Dr. Tony Campolo before as a voice of sanity and Christian reason on this issue, and I now contend that anyone who would find disagreement with him as such, is disqualified by being determined to despise gays, has a personal agenda rooted in homophobia, and has no place in the evangelism of gays or ministry to them. That person has issues that need to be straightened out before God before they can minister to another, since such ministry requires acts of Christ's love, not the illusion or declaration of it.
For those of you so madly driven to judgment, judge for yourselves:
Dr. and Mrs. Campolo, who take separate sides on the issue but are both the most relevant voices in evangelism today regarding it.
I downloaded these files from the bottom of the linked page to my mp3 player, and suggest you do the same as you consider these messages, should you be seeking a genuine balanced take on the subject of homosexuality in the church. Then perhaps share them as I am doing here, thanks to EpiscoWill.
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