Randy Alcorn's Email to John Piper and CJ Mahaney
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Randy Alcorn, writing about the Monday evening session at the Resolved Conference:
It was an unforgettable evening, one of the most powerful I've ever been part of.
All the audio messages from the conference are available for free on the Resolved website; videos of the messages can be downloaded for $4 each. I'd especially recommend downloading CJ's final message and John Piper's final message. (These links are to the audio, but if you prefer the video, for the cost of a latte, buy it. Seeing CJ and John will enhance the message, I think.)CJ and John,
I wanted to send this to the two of you in gratitude (mostly to God, secondarily to you) in particular for the final night of Resolved. I have been moved to tears and deep worship many times, but not in recent memory to the extent that I was Monday night.
Mark 15 and CJ’s “scream of the damned…for us” touched me at a profound level. The Holy Spirit spoke. And though I prayed and knew that John’s message would beautifully end the conference, I was not prepared for the way it happened.
I have never seen, orchestrated or unorchestrated (in this case orchestrated by the Holy Spirit), one single seamless message spoken by two men with nearly an hour between the end of one and the beginning of the other. I stood that night on sacred ground, as did you.
Yesterday early afternoon, in the Palm Springs airport, I opened to Mark 15 and wept again. I then did something I have done only twice before, once on the day my 85-year-old father, in a hospital bed, repented of his sin and surrendered to Christ. The other time when my best friend from childhood died next to me as I was reading to him Revelation 21-22, leaving this world precisely when I was reading 22:17: “The Spirit and the bride say ‘Come!’ And let him who hears say ‘Come!’ Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes let him take the free gift of the water of life.”
What I did on those occasions was write a date in my Bible: Feb. 9, 1992 at my Father’s conversion, and October 8, 1992 at my friend Jerry’s home-going between “Come!” and “take the free gift of the water of life.” The date is still there beside the verse I was reading when he died.
Without thinking about this, yesterday at the airport I wrote next to Mark 15:34, “June 16, 2008.” Then something else happened. I wrote after the date, “The Scream of the…” And I suddenly stopped, overwhelmed, breathless, pen frozen in hand. Why? Because I suddenly realized I needed to capitalize the word “Damned.” It was physically hard for me to do it. It seemed almost blasphemous…and so it should.
The unrighteous damned have no right to ask God why He has forsaken them (the reasons are self-evident to all who understand His holiness and our sin), but God’s Son the Beloved One had the right to ask, even knowing the answer and having participated in eternity past in the damning decision. He is the Lamb damned before the foundation of the world. So while the (lower case) damned will scream forever, ultimately there is only one Scream of the (upper case) Damned. Unthinkable. Inconceivable. And yet it happened…for us.
A flood of tears came as God preached the message to me yet again. That Deity would be Damned. That the God who is called upon righteously by the saints and angels in heaven to damn people, and called upon habitually by unbelievers flippantly and unrighteously to damn people, would in fact damn his Son, would (from the Son’s willingness to drink the cup) damn himself…for us. That it could be said of the Beloved One, “God damned Him,” and that He screamed the scream of the Damned….it was too much for me. It is too much for me this moment. And in the ages to come it will continue to be too much for me.
The cup of His suffering has long seemed deep to me, but never deeper than Monday night and the two days since.
Thank you, brothers, for being cleansed vessels, usable for eternal purposes. It was not only 3300 students whose hearts were marked for eternity Monday night. It was mine. You are not celebrities to me, but you are my mentors, in more ways that I can express. Thank you.
And thank you, Lord, for these two men, who you used as one on Monday night—guard their hearts and empower them to finish well, bowing their knees to you moment by moment, day by day.
And thanks forever to the One who screamed the scream of the Damned…and whose praises we will sing for all eternity.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
Grateful to be eternally undamned by the Damned,
Randy Alcorn
posted by JT at Monday, July 07, 2008
25 Comments:
this is a powerful message. i wished i was there at resolved. my heart trembles as i was reading alcorn's email message. how belittle we made the message of cross in our ministries... how inconceivable is it to think that the Creator of the universe became the 'Damned'. how amazing...
Please allow me to pose a question. Where in the Scriptures do we find the concept that Christ our Lord was Damned? To actually be damned one must have committed sin. 1 Peter 2:22 states that He did no sin. Jesus did not become a sinner, he bore our sin in substitution without becoming unrighteous in any way. Isaiah 53:4-5 says He bore our griefs,carried our sorrows, was wounded for our transgressions,bruised for our iniquities,and the chastisement of our peace was upon him, (our) is the key word here but at no time did he become a transgressor or commit iniquity. I fail to understand why The Word of God does not make you feel such wonder and awe. If Christ became damned then we have nothing to rejoice about, but if he stood perfectly sinless in my place that is something to rejoice about. Substitutionary death is not equal to the damnation unbelievers suffer, it is far superior because it is not due. His cry was not the cry of the damned but the perfectly obedient and sinless cry of the Son to His Father.If at any time He became a sinner He would have been unable to complete His work. Words have meaning and it is wise to stay within the framework of the meaning the Scriptures supply. Substitution not damnation.
You're equating damned with deserving to be damned. This is an unnecessary connection. It makes sense that you think this way, though, because usually God does not damn anyone who doesn't deserve it. But that's exactly what makes the Cross so scandalous, and the Gospel so glorious. He was innocent, and yet was damned.
The whole point of the Gospel is that Christ was innocent and even so He bore the full wrath of God that would have been exercised fully on innumerable sinners via an eternity in hell (each!).
Substitution is damnation, otherwise how was He our substitute? If He didn't fully bear the wrath due us (which is nothing other than damnation), how is He a substitute?
Mike Mike Mike...
You've got a gift man.
Well said.
Justin,
Thanks for posting this email, I read this to my wife in tears at parts over dinner last night and know that I need to hear those messages.
I can find nowhere in all of Scripture where Christ is said to be damned or condemned by God, that must be supplied extrabiblically. It does say he is so by the world. It also gives us reasons for their damnation, unbelief that stems from a wicked heart. Christ came to condemn the world not to be condemned himself. Substitution does not demand damnation of the person but of the sin He is dying for. Isaih 53:10 say's it pleased The Lord to bruise Him. God delighted in the death of His Son because it was flawless obedience. Damned is a horrible and unbiblical word to use to speak of Christ and is only used to speak of those who are damned. I have never even heard anyone use that word in this context before. Just because it sounds cool does not make it right. Mark 16:16 Jesus states "He that believeth NOT shall be damned" when did Christ NOT act in perfect faith towards His Father? (see second Thess 2:12). Phil 2:8 He was obedient unto death not condemned to death. Condemnation and damnation both infer guilt upon the one being condemned or damned and when was Christ guilty of anything.
I'm able to understand Randy Alcorn's e-mail, Willow Walker's comments, and Mike Riccardi's response to WW, and I somehow think they all make sense and cohere!
So my only guess is that they must be talking past each other!
I disagree TUAD, what we're saying is mutually exclusive.
Willow Walker, if you're looking for a specific biblical passage in which the words, "Christ was damned," appear, sure, you won't find it. But that's not what we need to find out if something is true.
We're not the first people to speak this way. The title of the collection of lectures on the Atonement by Mark Dever and JI Packer is called, "In My Place Condemned [damned] He Stood," which is a line out of the hymn "Man of Sorrows."
Substitution does not demand damnation of the person but of the sin He is dying for.
Even if I don't like this distinction, I'll happily grant it to you, because Christ became the sin He was dying for.
2Cor 5:21 -- He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Not only was He spoken of as the sin that was condemned, but it also said that He was cursed and became a curse.
Gal 3:13 -- Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE."
I mean... "Why have you forsaken me?" is a cry of a damned Son of God who never deserved to be forsaken. Like I said before, that's the glory of Christ's sacrifice and the glory of the doctrine of imputation. If that self-authenticating glory doesn't convince you, you won't be convinced. In the meantime, though, know that your understanding of substitution is empty without being agreeable to the fact that Christ was damned according to the will of the Father for His Bride.
Willow Walker,
thank you for such a well stated comment on this. I started a comment and realized it would be far too long-winded for the comment section. You said exactly what I wanted to say and I will restate:
"I have never even heard anyone use that word in this context before. Just because it sounds cool does not make it right."
I have likewise never heard this word in this context, and am convinced it's only being done (and becoming more common) for dramatic effect. Its disheartening to see it and hear it, as if we can't understand Biblical language, so we need to use a more shocking and stunning selection of words.
I agree with Willow on this one. The word "damned" has a different meaning, albeit subtle, to the word "condemned". The quote from the hymn, "In my place condemned He stood", is biblical - but to change "condemned" to "damned in that quote is not correct. To be condemned for something does not (necessarily) mean you are also damned.
According to my dictionary, "damned" refers to people who are specifically condemned (or in danger of being condemned) to eternal punishment in Hell. The key point here being the subject of their condemnation - ie. eternal punishment in Hell - that's what makes them damned.
On the other hand, "condemned" means to have a sentence pronounced upon you, eg. by a court of law.
So being condemned, in and of itself, does not mean you are also damned - unless your condemnation (ie. sentence or punishment) happens to be eternity in Hell - THEN you are damned.
As for Christ, I don't believe He was ever in any danger of facing eternal punishment in Hell. He surely knew, for all eternity past, that He would die for our sins and then rise again on the third day - without spending eternity in Hell. That He *must* rise again is, of course, absolutely vital and central to our very faith.
Therefore, I cannot accept that He was ever damned, according to my understanding of that word. And although it may seem unimportant which word we use, when the two words seem somewhat similar in meaning, I nevertheless think it is important to use words which are accurate and biblical. I would prefer to use terms like "substitution" or "condemnation".
So you would disagree with the fact that Christ bore the exact punishment that was due against every sinner for whom He died on the Cross?
That is, the only way a Christian doesn't pay the penalty of eternal hell is if someone else pays that penalty. Christ paid the equivalent of the punishment for innumerable sinners, thereby bearing the wrath of God equivalent to innumerable eternities in hell. That's being damned. If He was condemned only, pronounced guilty, but never carried the sentence, no forgiveness of sins for us. They wouldn't be paid for.
It's funny that you all are talking about biblical language, because the biblical language lines up with Mahaney, Piper, and Mohler on this one, as long as your authority is the biblical text and not English dictionaries, I suppose. If you look at the idea of what it means to be accursed (anathema, right?) from Galatians 1 or Romans 9:1-3, the idea is being cut off from God in eternal hell. Accursed = damned.
If you also look at Galatians 3 you notice the contrast of curse and blessing. God's blessing through the seed of Abraham is contrasted with God's curse through Adam. When it says Christ became a curse, for cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree, it couldn't be any more clear that He was considered as damned by the Father. Follow the verse into its original context of the OT. To be accursed was to be cut off from the blessings of God. All of the blessings that belong to a child of God were not His in that time. What is that other than damnation?
Now, certainly, this didn't happen for a temporal eternity. Christ isn't still excluded from the blessings of being a child of God. He's exalted at God's right hand and ruling as Lord over all (Phil 2:5ff, Ac 10:36). But the punishment endured on the cross was indeed the equivalent of being damned for an eternity in hell for each of the sinners whose sins were paid for.
I'd recommend RC Sproul's message at T4G about this, entitled "The Curse Motif of the Atonement." Again, you don't get substitution without the notion that Christ was actually your substitute to endure some sort of punishment that was yours to bear.
"According to my dictionary, "damned" refers to people who are specifically condemned (or in danger of being condemned) to eternal punishment in Hell. The key point here being the subject of their condemnation - ie. eternal punishment in Hell - that's what makes them damned."
Just to echo Mike (he said it before I had a chance to write it...).
If my deserved punishment is/was eternal damnation and hell, and if Christ to my punishment upon himself...then of course he was damned in my place. Otherwise he didn't take my place, not really. He took a cheap substitute in which case God's wrath could not be said to have been appeased and turned aside because something further would be owed.
Some here are overlooking that an eternal punishment put onto an eternal God must look different than an eternal punishment put onto a mortal.
The point is, were I to recieve an eternal punishment it would destroy me forever. Christ on the other hand, being eternal and eternally perfect, was able to absorb the full punishment and come out the other side. That is, he could be eternally damned, swallow that up, and be raised having paid the full price.
Eternity and infinity are equivalents. And infinity is defined as that which, when subtracted from itself, is not diminished.
So Christ can pay that infinite price and not be diminished one iota.
We, on the other hand, to properly pay an inifinte price, would have to be punished infinitely, with no end.
Thank God He took that infinite price for us, in full.
I also agree with willow. I have great respect for the teachers and theologians that God has provided for our learning but I believe them only as I compare each of their teachings with Scripture so, to say "we are not the only ones to speak this way" carries no weight. Christ was lied about by the hypocrites and was condemned to die by crucifixion. To say Christ was damned(which only God can do)is merely irresponsible speculation which often becomes the seed of some new heresy.
By His Grace
Jim
That's an extremely important point to make, Daryl. Thanks. It's one that I wouldn't have made, but that needs to be made.
I hope that the others (Jeremy, Willow, Carla) don't hear/read hostility from us. I write with urgency because this is such a crucial and weighty matter. It really involves seeing the glory of the Atonement (i.e., the Gospel) more clearly and more fully than otherwise. There's a lot at stake, and I'm just hoping you brothers and sisters might see it as well.
... But dang it if no one will respond to any of the actual points we're making.
Just as it carries no weight to say, "We're not the only ones to say this," it carries to weight to only add, "I agree with so-n-so" without saying why or dealing with the opposing arguments.
No, I read no hostility in your disagreements! :) This is just an interesting (and challenging) debate. And I do agree with some of the foundational statements you've made (Mike and Daryl), eg. I certainly agree that "Christ bore the exact punishment that was due against every sinner for whom He died on the Cross". What I'm still trying to nut out in my mind is the interpretation of that. I need to do some more thinking and reading about this. Then I hope to comment again and respond to the actual (very good) points you guys are making. :)
It seems like Carla's and S. Camp's comments sound close to denying penal substitutionary atonement. What am I missing?
May I suggest that Willow Walker and Mike Riccardi, the two principals in this discussion, are actually in closer agreement than either of them may realize?
What is happening in this discussion, it seems to me, is that there may be a few common fallacies taking place with regard to word usage. The first fallacy I observe that is responsible for dividing the two sides of the discussion is the word-idea fallacy. What is the word-idea fallacy at play in this discussion?
Willow Walker's initial question confuses word with idea or concept when asking, Where in the Scriptures do we find the concept that Christ our Lord was Damned?
Mike Riccardi's response properly points out You're equating damned with deserving to be damned. This is an unnecessary connection. However, more to the point is the fact that Willow Walker confounded the discussion from the beginning by confusing word and idea, as though since the word damned is not used in the New Testament with reference to Jesus, the concept of Jesus being damned is therefore not present in the New Testament either.
Willow Walker's next comment confirms this confusing of word and idea. WW wrote, I can find nowhere in all of Scripture where Christ is said to be damned or condemned by God, that must be supplied extrabiblically. That WW confuses word and idea becomes plainly evident in this statement: Damned is a horrible and unbiblical word to use to speak of Christ and is only used to speak of those who are damned. I have never even heard anyone use that word in this context before. Just because it sounds cool does not make it right.
Mike Riccardi's instincts were correct when he responded to WW by stating, Willow Walker, if you're looking for a specific biblical passage in which the words, "Christ was damned," appear, sure, you won't find it. But that's not what we need to find out if something is true. Mike is making my point without using my categories, namely, that the Bible surely expresses the concept that "Christ was damned" even though the Bible does not use that specific word.
Indeed, to the best of my recollection, our English Bibles do not contain any form of the English word damn to explain the nature of Jesus' substitutionary death. Damned is hardly a word that flows out of the Old Covenant backdrop that provides the bulk of the New Covenant categories for depicting Jesus' death. Cursed, on the other hand, as Mike Riccardi points out, is a significant biblical word that bears the concept of damnation, condemnation to eternal punishment.
Other word fallacies may also be at play in this discussion. Another seems to be a reverse version of the common anachronism fallacy. Many preachers commit this fallacy when they say, "The word dynamis (δύναμις), that Paul uses in Romans 1:16 to say that that "gospel is the power of God unto salvation," is the word from which we have derived our word dynamite. Therefore, we rightly think of the gospel as 'God's explosive power unto salvation'." This is the anachronistic imposition of a later derived English word meaning back onto the first century usage of Greek word.
Willow Walker's instincts are correct that the 21st century vulgar use of the English word damn, and its various forms, is not present in the Bible. WW seems not to want to conceive of the word damned, which is used in vulgar ways today, as descriptive of Jesus' death, which we rightly view with awe, reverence, and fear. May I suggest that C. J. Mahaney, as a preacher, purposefully employed the cognitive dissonance of this recognition when he speaks of the "scream of the damned . . . for us"? C. J. Mahaney, a man who does not engage in the vulgar use of the word damned has employed the word to shock our ears, and rightly so, for the concept that damned connotes is the biblical concept denoted and connoted by cursed or by Jesus' cry, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". With regard to vulgarisms, only those whose speech does not regularly employ vulgarism can use vulgarisms effectively and rightly (cf. Paul's use of σκύβαλα in Philippians 3:8).
"You're equating damned with deserving to be damned."
Thanks for that. And thanks for the very good discussion on this most holy ground of doctrine.
We all agree that Jesus became a curse for us. And that is essential. Some of differ on what that means in its deepest sense.
I am willing to look at the Scriptures, and try to leave my presuppositions at home.
May our Lord's grace do a great work in all our hearts. Amen.
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me. ....Chrsit has redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree. ....But God forbid that I should boast save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." (Galatians 2:20;3:13;6:14)
Just as we have trouble understanding that Jesus is 100 percent man and 100 percent God, it seems we have trouble understanding that Jesus was 100 percent dead, 100 percent condemned, took upon Himself 100 percent of our sin and was 100 percent resurrected. Along with WW I too was put back by this use of dammed, applied to our Savior. But the discussion here is quite erudite and exact. The fullness of sin and it's penalty was upon Jesus. It can only be that way. Nothing was lacking in His work. And we SHOULD be shocked by the revelation, the coming to understand, that Jesus was, completely dead, completely separated from the Father and completely damned. AND THEN HE ROSE AGAIN!
The complete work, completed for me and all who believe, even those who believe in His name. All glory, honor and praise to Yeshua the Messiah.
I understand the desire to use language that is biblical. And much of that desire is good. But I think it is okay to use synonyms and language that conveys the same meaning.
For example, we use the word Trinity. Nowhere do we find it in the Bible. I think if someone opposes the use of the word "damned" on the basis that we do not find Jesus referred to that way in the Bible, that same person should not use the term "Trinity" because it is also not found in the Bible.
I mostly thank God for the things made known to me in this blog post. Secondarily, My thanks goes to Randy Alcorn, the blog admin, A.B. Caneday, and to Daryl. Daryl, that concept of eternal requirement had been on my mind awhile...thank you for pointing out Christ's infinity, and ability to swallow up our punishment and not be diminished in his God-hood...surely we WILL say "death IS swallowed up in victory" in whatever angelic tongue we will speak when the saints consummately join as One Church. A.B., thank you for giving us an indepth insight into word-idea. Aren't you glad that God would use jars of clay like us!
2 Corinthians 4:6-7 (ESV)
4:6
For God, who said, Let light shine out of darkness,has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.
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I posted this a second ago but revoked it to change a grammatical error, haha...wouldn't want to frustrate anyone.
This might not help anybody, but I thought that I might throw this personal experience in the mix.
I used to have some polar opposite theological differences with a certain theologian. When I read his writings, it made me furious. Not just angry, but furious. I was enraged, and I was fighting to love him like Christ loved him. So God told me in my spirit, "Pray for him." So I did.
I found that when I prayed prayers like, "God please change his theology to be right in your eyes, I want you to bless his ministry so please please unveil the truth to him," I found that as I prayed this prayer, God slowly answered it...but he did the spiritual eye surgery within me instead. I don't know if that theologian's eyes were opened to more and more Truth, but my eyes were! I actually came into complete agreement with this theologian on the matter that I was concerned about! I couldn't refute his arguments anymore, I couldn't fight anymore, and I saw that God was telling me that I was the one who needed to change on the matter (not that we all couldn't stand to change to be like Christ!).
So, this is my recommendation...pray for the brother that you disagree with...but beware, God might change you instead! :D
I would say that often "we do not have because we do not ask," or because we don't ask for things like wisdom with complete faith that when we ask for something that is best for the Kingdom (like us getting wisdom from God on how to do His will) that we don't receive it. If we pray for the namesake of Jesus Christ (in the name of Jesus) we ought not be afraid of our prayers returning void. My beloved, be blessed, in Jesus Christ's name, Amen.
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