Tony Snow (1955-2008)
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Tony Snow, conservative commentator and former press secretary to President Bush (2006-2007), died this morning.
Snow, an evangelical, wrote an article for Christianity Today in 2007 entitled Cancer's Unexpected Blessings. Here is an excerpt, the ending of his essay:
Snow, an evangelical, wrote an article for Christianity Today in 2007 entitled Cancer's Unexpected Blessings. Here is an excerpt, the ending of his essay:
I sat by my best friend's bedside a few years ago as a wasting cancer took him away. He kept at his table a worn Bible and a 1928 edition of the Book of Common Prayer. A shattering grief disabled his family, many of his old friends, and at least one priest. Here was a humble and very good guy, someone who apologized when he winced with pain because he thought it made his guest uncomfortable. He retained his equanimity and good humor literally until his last conscious moment. "I'm going to try to beat [this cancer]," he told me several months before he died. "But if I don't, I'll see you on the other side."His gift was to remind everyone around him that even though God doesn't promise us tomorrow, he does promise us eternity—filled with life and love we cannot comprehend—and that one can in the throes of sickness point the rest of us toward timeless truths that will help us weather future storms.
Through such trials, God bids us to choose: Do we believe, or do we not? Will we be bold enough to love, daring enough to serve, humble enough to submit, and strong enough to acknowledge our limitations? Can we surrender our concern in things that don't matter so that we might devote our remaining days to things that do?
posted by JT at Saturday, July 12, 2008
81 Comments:
A good and kind man. His article in CT was amazing--and a rebuke, in its own way to the junk we see from so-called pastors such as Joel Osteen. We will see him in Heaven, I believe.
An intelligent, articulate believer who made a difference in the realm of politics (not an easy task). I was wondering why he hadn't been filling in for Bill O'Reilly on his radio show lately. I'm sorry to hear of his passing...but will see him face to face one day!
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Tony and I were college classmates. Here are my thoughts on his life and death.
That's sad to hear.I liked Tony a lot. I saw him on Jon Stewart's show, and he held his own.
Would love to see more men like he was.
Nice words in the excerpt.
A great excerpt, but BTW there are a few more paragraphs on page 3 of the CT article.
Thanks for the post.
Tony was the best and I'm heartbroken at the news of his passing. I didn't realize he was terminal.
Tony was nice and decent guy and funny as someone reminded wouldn't take no funny business. I wasn't sure if he was evangelical, I'm really glad to know that he is but I'm saddened that such a great example to politics would be taken from us.
Well, I know that he is Heaven right now and saddened for us.
Justin,
When you say that Snow was an evangelical, are you making that statement on your own or is that something you read somewhere.
As I understand it, Tony Snow was a devout Roman Catholic. That being the case, I hardly understand how Snow could be considered an evangelical.
I would be helpful if you would clear up exactly what you are trying to say by the statement that Snow is an evangelical.
Ask Piper, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, David Wells, I don't think these men would consider a devout Roman Catholic an evangelical and neither do I.
How can we call someone who accepts a gospel other that the biblical Gospel of salvation through Christ alone, by His grace alone, through faith alone.
It is admirable that Mr. Snow was a conservative, a family man, and a man of faith. This however does not make Snow an evangelical or even a Christian for that matter.
One would like to believe Tony Snow was a Christian, but anyone devoted to the Gospel of the bible should have some questions given Snow's Catholic faith.
Gain!
Shane,
I'm including two links below from the FNC website. Blogger will not post the full link so just do a search on the www.foxnews.com website and watch the two links.
The first link is an interview with the current press secretary. She says that Snow always brought his Bible to work and was very open about sharing his faith. Roman Catholics don't do that. But, I could be wrong, but I don't know where you heard he was a RC.
The second link, let me warn you is a tear jerker by the FNC Chief Washington Correspondent Brett Bair (sp?). He shared that Tony Snow was emailing him almost daily saying that he was praying for Brett's son during some hard times for a surgery his son was going through.
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=2256996&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,381250,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=2256996&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,381250,00.html
Hmmm...well, I did a little research on the internet and it appears that he might be Catholic. I don't know...
If that is the case, then it probably brings great shame to evangelical Christianity because he did more to share than most evangelicals do. Obviously one cannot actually believe in RC doctrine and be saved and unless he ignorantly remained a Catholic while trusting in Christ alone for his salvation then it just brings great shame that a RC would do more than most evangelicals do.
I'll leave it up to Justin to help clarify the facts.
Carlo,
Thank you for the links. I don't think there is much question Tony Snow was a Catholic.
I think we both know their are people in this world like Snow who are very devoted to their faith, they just have put their hope in a dead faith, one that will not save them in the end.
I will say, God only knows if Tony Snow's faith was a saving faith, but He has given us the scriptures that we might know the truth.
Shane
Shane,
I took JT's blog at face value that Snow was an evangelical and what I saw at the FNC interviews appeared to validate that.
If he is in fact, RC, what can I say, I feel like an idiot.
Oh well...
The sad thing is you all questioning a man's faith who's life was full of fruit. For you all actually to believe that 0 Roman Catholics are "saved" is borderline absurdity and narrow-minded. Just because they may not believe in a few doctrines 16th century theologians got excited about does not mean they don't follow Christ...sorry to break the news to you.
Shane and Carlo,
To put it plainly, knock it off with the label dropping. Come on, this is a man who just died! Please pause and feel the weight of that!
Consider if this is the proper time and place to bring up this issue. A man's life has ended, a man who has people, even if we do not know them, who care for him and are grieving from his loss and you want to debate whether he is Roman Catholic or not. Very poor indeed.
Have to disagree with both KMathews and Shannon.
First, K, calling the question of how a man can be righteous in God's eyes "a few doctrines 16th century theologians got excited about" indicates that (on the most charitable reading) you yourself did not learn the lesson others learned 500 years ago.
Second, Shannon, in that Tony is being called "evangelical" in reports, yet had otherwise been said to be Roman Catholic (as I too had heard), it's valid to discuss. Put it on Rome that that fact is concerning. I don't get that anyone here — certainly including me, who liked and admired Tony a lot, and had a little correspondence with him — wants to read him out of the Kingdom.
I want to be able to say with joy and confidence that Tony's suffering is over, and he's beholding Christ's face in joy and glory — having trusted Christ alone for his salvation.
It isn't about Tony, or any animus towards him.
It's about Rome, and Rome's deliberate and ongoing perversion of the saving Gospel of Christ. If you want to be upset with some object, choose Rome. I certainly believe that a Roman Catholic may accept the Gospel in spite of Rome's teachings and heresies. But the fact that membership in that sect casts a person's spiritual state in great doubt is not a sin of the doubter, but of Rome.
I take hope in the specifics I've read Tony write and say about his faith. I hope to see him in Heaven. I hope that the reports that he was evangelical (and not Roman Catholic) are true.
But if he was Roman Catholic, I'll have to hold my concern.
And that will be on Rome, not on me.
If my insistence on the centrality of the Gospel offends you... oh, well. Sorry. Hope you come to think otherwise.
Sorry for any confusion. I called him an "evangelical" largely based on my perception of his faith and anecdotal evidence about it. E.g., he was a part of a Bible-believing Methodist church, and I know that he has read Grudem's Systematic Theology cover to cover.
JT
DJP: I want to be able to say with joy and confidence that Tony's suffering is over, and he's beholding Christ's face in joy and glory — having trusted Christ alone for his salvation.
Jas.2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
I can do that too, Teresita.
Romans 4:5 — "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."
One trusts Christ alone for salvation, or he doesn't. That's the difference between the saving, Biblical gospel and all (by definition) damning substitutes. Christ is savior. Not co-signer.
didn't agree with his politics, but crossed paths with him a time or two in our shared fandom of ian anderson and jethro tull. was in a studio with him where 'aqualung live' was recorded - of course, he was let in early and sat on the front row, left side, right in front of ian. and i was quite envious...
as an aside, i'll just say how refreshing it is to see the debate here focus on whether or not tony was 'saved' before his body is even cold. (of course, i was badmouthed repeatedly when i said that God didn't cause Steven Curtis Chapman's daughter's death.)
oh, how i wish i had the 'right' theology to be able to pick and choose what comments are appropriate and which aren't. one day i hope to be as enlightened as all of you robe-wearing God-Jr.'s.
no, on second thought, i really don't...
tony, rest in peace.
and who was i to last forever?
i never promised to stay the pace.
not in this lifetime, but we'll cling together:
some kind of heaven written in your face.
- ian anderson, 'at last, forever' off of the album roots to branches, 1995
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
DJP: One trusts Christ alone for salvation, or he doesn't. That's the difference between the saving, Biblical gospel and all (by definition) damning substitutes. Christ is savior. Not co-signer.
Then all those poor souls who benefited from St. Paul's work as a sort of co-redeemer are lost, because it was supposed to be Christ alone.
Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church
What a coincidence, Mike "Spud" Rucker, fancy finding you over here.
DJP: I can do that too, Teresita.
Romans 4:5 — "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."
What kind of works was he talking about? Back up a few verses to see.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Works of law. That means keeping a sabbath, or refraining from certain foods, or getting circumcised. Your equivocation on the word "works" is nothing new, they did that in the First Century too, which was the reason St. James had to write his chapter 2 to stress the importance of charitable works and the fact that they were not to be identified with works of law.
What a coincidence, Mike "Spud" Rucker, fancy finding you over here.
shhhh... i'm incognito.
just started an interesting book tonight: christine wicker's 'God knows my heart.' she had to move away from the we've-got-all-the-answers-and-know-God-better-than-His-mother-does crowd once she began looking at the world and asking questions - similar to the two-hundred seventy degrees i've gone with my faith.
thankfully, God is bigger than the boxes we all put Him in.
and, just as thankfully, God needs no jury of the (more or less) twelve angry men here to see into mr. snow's heart.
i hope everyone continues to quote verses back and forth that suggest ideas in direct opposition to each other. hopefully there will come a day when the most adamant verse-quoters dare to step out of the theological frameworks they insist on imposing on every text and read things for what they really say.
(pause)
nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
Justin,
It is interesting that you say Tony Snow was part of a Bible-believing Methodist church. I can not find that information anywhere. That does not make your statement any less true, I just find it odd that I can find several reports that Tony Snow was a convert to Catholicism and nothing regarding him as a Methodist.
Here is what I do know, you can attend any 'Christian' church and still be lost.
You also mention that Tony Snow had read Grudem's Systematic Theology cover to cover. Well, that is great but what does that really mean? I have read Catholic Matters (Richard John Neuhaus), Rome Sweet Home (Scott and Kimberly Hahn), Catholic Christianity (Peter Kreeft) all by Protestant turned Catholic authors. Does this make me Catholic, hardly. I have read numerous other Catholic resource including the Catholic Catechism and I have only grown stronger in my convictions that the Roman Catholic Church is in a state of apostasy and leading many down the path that leads to destruction.
Bottom line, there is only one Gospel and you either come to true saving faith in Christ only one way.
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, on the authority of Scripture alone.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Here is one link that would indicate Mr. Snow's Catholic faith.
Tony Snow Dead at 53, A Tribute to a Catholic Journalist
Shane
Shane,
Please re-read my comment. Of course I don't think that attending a Protestant church or reading an evangelical textbook makes one an evangelical. As I stated, it was an assumption, and I apologized for any confusion.
JT
Teresita,
Your interpretation is common (in some circles) but I think it's ultimately unconvincing.
You may find this study helpful:
http://www.djmoophoto.com/articles/lawandlegalism.pdf
Blessings,
JT
Spud: and, just as thankfully, God needs no jury of the (more or less) twelve angry men here to see into mr. snow's heart.
Some Evangelicals used the occasion of the death of Ma Theresa (to my disgust, I must say) to lay down their contrasting version of the gospel, which is based on well-thinking rather than well-doing.
But Paul says eternal life is awarded according to our deeds and level of obedience:
Romans 2:
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
"But Paul says eternal life is awarded according to our deeds and level of obedience:"
How good to I have to be? Or how many good works? Or should I ask, How moral do I have to be?
donsands -
i'm not sure paul has internet access to answer your questions; i've heard that at&t has not yet delivered his world...
they are certainly good ones - ones that an intelligent, rational person must ask at many, many places in scripture.
but don't posit them to anyone commenting on this post, because we didn't write them.
just a question: if paul's (or peter's or Jesus' or john's or ...) audience heard h/Him say something essentially in isolation, e.g, "repent and be baptized," "he who believeth shall not perish," "even the demons believe," "filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions," etc., how are they to interpret what was said as anything other than, well, what was said? did each speaker/writer qualify his words with, "ok, well, not exactly; but when you get the rest of the books you can harmonize all these disparate directives and decide which ones you like best"?
the bibliolator camp seems to overlook two facts:
(a) people lived this stuff in real time, and
(b) access to the biblio in our lives is much, much greater than it has been at any point during history.
but just to attempt to keep to the real topic at hand, here's another lyric in remembrance of Tony Snow that seems appropriate to our discussion here:
people what have you done?
locked Him in His golden cage?
made Him bend to your religion,
Him resurrected from the grave?
He is the god of nothing
if that's all that you can see:
you are the gods of everything
though He's inside you and me.
- ian anderson, "My God" off of the Aqualung LP, 1971
still looking for that 12-step program to break my addiction to internet arguments...
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life, believe in Me and you will never die."
Great words.
Could any other man say that?
Do you believe Jesus was resurrected after He was nailed to a cross for the sins of His people, and is The life, way, & truth?
yea or nay?
I think most of the posts on the first page are pretty rude. The letter written by Tony Snow is a beautiful testimony of faith. Tony Snow's funeral will be at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. That speaks volumes. With most of what I have read in here, I will pray for your "evangelical" personal relationship to became even half as real as Tony's.
Bush will attend Tony Snow's funeral Thursday
9 hours ago
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush and his wife, Laura, visited on Monday with the family of the former White House press secretary Tony Snow, who died of colon cancer at age 53.
Snow was survived by his wife, Jill, and their three children. The Bushes went to Snow's home in Alexandria, Va., and hugged family members on the porch before going inside.
The Bushes will attend Snow's funeral Thursday at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.
Snow was the White House press secretary from May 2006 until last September. He long was a member of Washington's power circles, and a familiar face across the country, as a conservative commentator and an interviewer on TV and radio for Fox News.
I heard Brit Hume say that over the last few years Tony had "an insatiable hunger for Jesus Christ". They apparently met with a minister (forgot the name) who played linebacker for Bear Bryant and apparently Tony was meeting with him quite frequently. I have tried to find out the guys name but have not had any luck
"Tony had an insatiable hunger for Jesus Christ..."
sure, and that's all well and good, but having an 'insatiable hunger' for fried chicken doesn't automatically admit one to a KFC restaurant. and while you may be hungrier than everyone else, for some reason they go right by you as you sit weeping and gnashing your teeth.
and the great chasm between the front door and the counter where your order can be placed really cannot be crossed. ray kroc asked for just a finger dipped in the 7 secret herbs and spices to cool his tongue, but it couldn't be done. the manager of that KFC said, 'he has fancy chefs, and Kroger, and food testers - let him look to them.'
and don't think that running around in the parking lot to pick up trash is going to help you, either - you'd have to pick up all the trash at all the KFCs - and it still wouldn't be enough!
yes, that 'insatiable hunger' is good, but Colonel Sanders says there's only one thing you can do to get a meal. ask him humbly, and he'll tell you.
but beware: while he always speaks truth, he sure has a way of starting fights about the meaning of what he says with everyone wearing those silly paper hats.
(sorry - but this is about the best i can do in attempting to match what passes for thoughtful analysis here.)
one more lyric that Tony Snow probably heard a thousand times in his too-short life:
and i asked this God a question,
and by way of firm reply, He said,
'I'm not the kind you have to wind up
on Sundays.'
- ian anderson, 'Wind Up', off of the Aqualung LP, 1971
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Tony Snow, Requiescat In Pace
Like many Americans I am mourning the passing of Tony Snow, the journalist and White House spokesman who lost his battle with colon cancer on Saturday.
Tony and I had many friends in common and knew each other a bit. Years ago, before he joined Fox News, I met him in Washington and bumped into him occasionally on the road at functions and conferences. He was a class act and a passionate journalist. He was also a committed and practicing Catholic; though I hear little mention of it in the scant media remembrances.
Over the last few weeks another Sunday morning Washington institution, Tim Russert was saluted from all quarters for his civility and faith. Russert's Catholicism was highlighted in nearly every televised memorial. Not so with Tony Snow. And this is unfortunate.
Tony was not only a convert to Catholicism, but he publically stood with the Church on all those issues that separate the goats from the sheep. He was pro-life, an advocate for the less fortunate, and committed to the common good. Still, near as I can tell, no Cardinals came rushing forward to minister to his co-workers or are tripping over one another to celebrate his funeral Mass. As a friend observed recently, "When you do what you're supposed to do the praise comes in heaven."
According to Tony, his brush with colon cancer (which claimed his mother's life) deepened his faith and instigated a reappraisal of priorities. In 2007, during a commencement speech at Catholic University, Tony offered his thoughts on faith. He said:
"Don’t shrink from pondering God’s role in the universe or Christ’s. You see, it’s trendy to reject religious reflection as a grave offense against decency. That’s not only cowardly. That’s false. Faith and reason are knitted together in the human soul. So don’t leave home without either one... Think not only of what it means to love but what it means to be loved. I have a lot of experience with that. Since the news that I have cancer again, I have heard from thousands and thousands of people and I have been the subject of untold prayers... never underestimate the power of other people’s love and prayer. They have incredible power. It’s as if I’ve been carried on the shoulders of an entire army. And they had made me weightless. The soldiers in the army just wanted to do a nice thing for somebody. As I mentioned, a lot of people — everybody out here — wants to do that same thing.”
As Paul said 'Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.' And once you realize that there is something greater than you out there, and then you have to decide, “Do I acknowledge it and do I act upon it?” You have to at some point surrender yourself. And there is nothing worthwhile in your life that will not at some point require an act of submission.”
Tony submitted himself to the Church, and later, in his struggle with cancer, to God's will. This later submission is difficult for us to accept, but it is perhaps Tony's last lesson for us. May we all follow his example and learn to accept God's Will with the same grace and consistency that he displayed in both public and private life. He will be greatly missed.
Rest in peace Tony.
http://www.raymondarroyo.com/blog/2008/07/tony_snow_requiescat_in_pace.html
"St. Michael",
What you fail to understand is the absolute urgency we have to contend the one and only gospel.
The apostle Paul in his letter to the Galations was astonished that some were turning to a different gospel other than the gospel of Christ.
There is only one gospel and Paul warned us that if any of them or even an angel from heaven preached a different gospel then let him be cursed.
You can boil down all religions to two different gospels: a gospel of a salvation by works and a gospel of salvation by faith alone.
Abraham believed in the promise of God that God would make him a blessing to the nations. Abraham believed that promise and God counted it as righteousness before Abraham did anything good. That promise to Abraham was fulfilled when God sent His Holy Spirit to the nations beginning at the Day of Pentecost.
Believing and trusting in Christ alone is the only true gospel. The Catholic church believes in a different gospel. A gospel that puts Mary as co-Redempter and co-Mediator with Christ. They also negate the words of Christ on the cross when He said, teleios, which is a Greek term used in accounting which means paid in full. What was paid in full, the sins of all that Christ has and would die for.
What is abominable about the Catholic faith is that it in the Mass in re-sacrifices Christ negating the debt paid in full at Calvary.
We contend for this because we don't want to see people like Tony or Mother Teresa be duped into living in travelling along that broad and wide road to perdition forever and ever.
I for one will continue to contend for the faith.
carlos,
i can only assume from the fact that hitting the link under your name gives no information about you that you are all bark and no bite.
if that is an unfair judgment, please hop to my blog and comment on something so i can obtain contact information for you. i'd like to discuss what you've written here.
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Spud,
Actually, the reason why my profile is no longer available is because I'm concerned about identity theft.
Your judgment is unfair and I don't have a whole lot of time to peruse other blogs, but thanks for the offer. Besides, I don't know why we would need to go to another blog to discuss further anyway.
Carlo (note correct spelling).
Well-said, Carlo.
One wonders: if the death of someone you care about isn't a good occasion to stress the nature and centrality of the true, saving Gospel... what is?
we'd go to another blog for the same reason i went to another blog with another comment writer: this post is supposed to be about tony snow and we've (myself included to a minor degree) turned it into another argument over theology, with most of the posts here damning this fine example of Christ in our world to hell.
it's obvious that a lot of people here would rather pass judgment - after all, that's their raison d'etre and modus operandi - than offer condolences or fond memories.
funny (but, in the end, sad) that you don't have time to discuss what you wrote but somehow have ample time to determine who's in and who's out when it comes to salvation.
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Carlo, your lack of compassion equals your ignorance of Catholicism. May the Almighty God have mercy on your soul for the truth is, Matt.7
[1] "Judge not, that you be not judged.
[2] For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
St Michael: Carlo, your lack of compassion equals your ignorance of Catholicism. May the Almighty God have mercy on your soul for the truth is, Matt.7
[1] "Judge not, that you be not judged.
[2] For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
Never ceases to amaze me how that Matt 7 passage is twisted. Anyway, I have three questions for you. The apostle Paul, not once, but twice, in his opening passages to the letter to the Galations says if anyone teaches a gospel contrary to the one they received from the apostles, let him be accursed (anathema - a term you should be well acquainted with since the CC employed it so much). If I may quote the passages: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you recevied, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)
Why do you think he said that (twice)?
Was the apostle Paul not compassionate?
Do you believe that Catholicism and Reformed Christianity are two different gospels and one is a distortion of the other? If so, are not one of us accursed if we go on believing and teaching others of it until our death?
Justin,
My comment was not intended to be mean spirited or anything like that. I am not looking to blame anyone for anything.
It would seem that Tony Snow was a Catholic but I am still not sure.
My main point was that if Tony Snow was a devout Catholic (devoted to the official doctrines of the RC Church, etc. then I would have some concern with regards to his understanding of justification and his true standing with Christ.
There have been comments about how some are so insensitive to bring up the topic of 'was Tony saved' or something like that. I would like to point out that, Tony, like us all will be judged by God, but what is wrong with discussing an issue as important as our eternal destiny.
Shane
Shane, whats wrong with guessing whether one is saved or not...maybe it is wrong because you nor anyone else in here knows the eternal destination of his soul much less anyone else's. Maybe because God in His infinite wisdom knows Tony Snow's heart better than ANYONE in here will ever know. So, until any of you become God and can make those vast eternal judgements upon a mans soul, get off God's toes and concern yourself with your OWN salvation. The self rigtheous displays of "soul reading" in here is apalling. Shame on you all that think to know a mans heart.
"who's in and who's out when it comes to salvation."
That depends on Christ, and Christ alone; not good works.
Good people don't go to heaven. "Forgiven of their sins people" go to heaven. Those who have repented of their own goodness, and trusted in Christ's goodness; His perfect goodness, that is centralized in the Cross, where he died for the sins of His beloved people.
I personally liked Tony. he was great on the Jon Stewart show, and he was a good man, but was he a sinner, who had his sins blotted out by the mercy of God?
I don't know.
I know my sins are blotted out. I know Christ saved me. And what a Savior and God I do worship and love!
I am having a hard time figuring out why everyone is being so hard on Carlo.
I don't really see how he is judging as much as he is defending the biblical gospel.
We don't have to judge in order to speak the truth. It should be in love (Eph. 4:15), our speaking of truth that is, but we are to contend for the faith (Jude 3).
With regards to judging and Matt 7, let me provide these comments: In context, this does not prohibit all types of judging (see Matt 7:16). There is a righteous kind of judgment we are to exercise with careful discernment (Jn 7:24).
Finally, for Mike Rucker. Dude why the bark and bite comment. Why would anyone attempt to "bark and bite". The truth share in love, that is the goal. If you truly love someone, you want keep the truth from them just because if may hurt their feeling or something like that. Unlike other disputes so many of us discuss and debate, this one is about where you and I and everyone will spend eternity. You don't have to believe in something for it to be true. A truth remains a truth no matter who believes it.
Again, this is the truth and I pray that many will come to know it:
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, on the authority of Scripture alone.
Ephesians 2:8-9
This post has been removed by the author.
So, Shane, tell me...do you presume to have the mind of God? Do you know the eternal destination of another mans soul? You know for sure, 100% who is in heaven and who is not by your assessment of their PERSONAL relationship with God? Please. Stop making a mockery of God and pretending to be judge and jury. This is an abhorance that a man like Tony Snow should be under suspicion by any of you. Have you ever read in the scriptures the apostles debating another mans soul? Debating a mans love of Jesus and deciding whether they were in heaven or in hell? Please, this is sickening. Again, shame on you!
Given I have made some mention of truth, I thought I would share a quote from John MacArthur's book, The Truth War.
Much of the visible church nowadays seems to think Christians are supposed to be at play rather than at war. The idea of actually fighting for doctrinal truth is the furthest thing from most churchgoers' thoughts.
Visit Shane's Blog
Shane, I have no problem fighting for doctrinal truth. I have a SERIOUS problem fighting over or even discussing the eternal destination of another mans soul though. NOBODY in here knows such things nor should you. What I find most alarming is when we should be commending their soul to the mercy of God some are like scavengers picking at doctrinal issues. The christian hopes for all people. And we defer to God's judgement, in all things, even a mans soul. How glad I am you do not have the knowledge nor the divinity to judge my soul. I don't care what denomination you are. I am absolutely 100% sure you are NOT God.
St. Michael still thinks I am judging for some reason. I have said multiple times I do not know what the condition of Tony Snow's heart was and God is his final judge, not me.
We do have the word of God as our guide and I stand upon it as infallible and true.
With regards to "having the mind of God" I will simply point you to 1 Corinthians 2:14-16
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Last but not least, you may want to consider John Piper’s ETS Message.
St. Michael:
You say "What I find most alarming is when we should be commending their soul to the mercy of God some are like scavengers picking at doctrinal issues."
I think it is appropriate to mention here that we do not have the authority to commend a soul to the mercy of God. God is not moved by our plea for someone who has already left this earth.
Spurgeon, speaking on "Salvation is of the Lord" writes:
We are to understand by this, that the whole of the work whereby men are saved from their natural estate of sin and ruin, and are translated into the kingdom of God and made heirs of eternal happiness, is of God, and of him only. "Salvation is of the Lord."
I guess we could play scripture tennis now...Romans 11:[32] For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
[34] "For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
[35] "Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"
[36] For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen.
WHO has been His counselor...who has had the MIND of the Lord??
2Tim.1
[16] May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiph'orus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains,
Luke.16
[24] And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'
Scripture tennis !
Well, knowing and understanding scripture is of the utmost importance. Quoting scripture is one thing, understanding it and applying it is everything.
I would be happy to discuss application with you but for some reason I don't think that is what you want to do. You want to continue to claim that people are judging Tony Snow when in fact that is not the case.
Please read all of the comments from those not sharing your presumed Catholic faith.
Now, with regards to Romans 11:33-36. What are you trying to say by quoting it. You are going to have to provide some commentary if you expect anyone to understand what you are trying to say by quoting this text.
See John Piper on the Doctrine of Justification.
So, "St. Michael", I'd like to ask my questions again.
The apostle Paul in his letter, says twice, whoever teaches a gospel contrary to the one they had received, Paul calls them twice, accursed (anathema). Why do you think Paul is adamant in saying cursed is the one who teaches a gospel contrary to the one they received?
Do you agree that there is one true gospel of Jesus and if so, do you agree that Roman Catholicism teaches one gospel and Reformed Christianity teaches another? They both obviously do not have the same gospel. Either one of them is contrary to one given to the early church or both of them are?
Right?
I presume your reference to 2 Tim 1:16 and Lk 16:24 are in some way intended to make the commending of dead people to God biblical.
If that was you intention, I don't find anything in these text to support such an argument.
In 2 Tim. 1:16 the commendation is going out to the house of Onesiphorus not to Onesiphorus himself who may have already actually been dead. In any case, any request to God commending someone whould only be useful if that person is still living. When I say useful, let me be clear, we can pray for God to save souls, but it is God that does the saving, not our prayers or commendations.
Scripture tells in Heb. 9:27 -- And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment
The concepts of praying for the dead and to the dead are not found in scripture and as such are false doctrines and at odds with the true biblical gospel and thus at odds with God.
Now, Lk 16:24 -- In this account of Abraham being addressed by the Rich Man, we find Abraham telling the Rich Man he can not help him. Basically, Abraham is telling the Rich Man that his brothers should head the gospel or they will parish and go to hell. Moses and the Prophets pointed to Jesus and the gospel of faith in Jesus. All men throughout time have all been saved by faith in Jesus. So men where either saved through faith in the Christ who was promised or through faith in the Christ who has come.
here's a one-question test everyone should take:
1. what must one do to be saved?
if, as many here believe, there is one right and a host of wrong answers, the papers won't be hard to grade. 0 or 100.
heaven or hell, i suppose.
no cheating off each others' papers. the biblical authors couldn't do it, so neither should you.
pretend someone is asking you that really, truly wants to hear a life-changing answer and is not already assembling their next comment, or belittling others (even when certain nameless persons refused to answer this question when already humbly and politely put to them in email...).
so, donsands? carlo? djp? shane? st. michael? abraham, martin, john? peter, paul, mary?
what would you tell someone?
brevity, of course, is key. after all, peter used three words...
and, trust me, my skin is almost as thick as my skull: feel free to attack my comments here in any way you choose.
just be brave enough to answer the question first.
after all, someone's eternity, and not how wise you look in the comments section of a website post, might just depend on it.
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Shame on you all that think to know a mans heart
Good word for all the haters who are trying to shame and judge folks here for still caring (out loud) about the Gospel and Cross of Christ, and the souls of men.
That is what you meant, right?
hmmm... no one wanting to be the first to answer, 'what must one do to be saved?'.
no comment.
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
I'll bite...
Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Which means, believe what is true about Him. What he did, why he did it and how much we can permissibly add to it. That last bit being the clear sticking point in this thread. The reformers insisted that we are permitted to add nothing to his work, Rome insisting that not only can we add to it, but we must.
Tony Snow was taught a lie, and so, although we all admit that we can't know for certain what changed for him nearer the end, if he believed what it appears that he did, then he has added to Christ making his sacrifice of no value to him.
Shame on those who taught him such things.
I thought i already answered that spud tooley.
reread my last two comments gracias.
Actually Don, after the morning of 7/13/2008, just about every accusation or question already had been answered.
which means, djp, you can go on and on implying someone wasn't saved, but cannot tell that person how he/she could have been.
one would think that the message could be distilled enough to be shared in like fashion whether the hearer is on their death bed, in a foxhole, standing in line at Starbucks, participating in a theology class, or sitting for weeks in a pew.
of course, deflecting the question is ... well .. what i expected. at least donsands pointed to two specific statements, and daryl made an effort to reply.
so, according to donsands, we have:
"Forgiven of their sins people" go to heaven. Those who have repented of their own goodness, and trusted in Christ's goodness; His perfect goodness, that is centralized in the Cross, where he died for the sins of His beloved people.
and,
Do you believe Jesus was resurrected after He was nailed to a cross for the sins of His people, and is The life, way, & truth? yea or nay?
even there we have two slightly different ideas.
daryl was more specific:
Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
i'm not sure what 'believe on' would mean if i heard it. but daryl did go on with further qualifications: [w]hat he did, why he did it and how much we can permissibly add to it.
which begs a few questions:
(a) do we need to know everything He did?;
(b) can we really know why He did everything we must believe that He did?;
(c) in adding to it, are we limited to the Gospels, since they alone tell what He 'did', or do we go to Romans and try to develop doctrines like 'limited atonement,' etc., to which we must swear allegiance?
the question i proposed is a difficult one - and i'm not just trying to be cute (i looked in the mirror this morning, and those days are long gone...). i asked because i believe those who speak the loudest, thinking they have the definite answers, should spend a few minutes trying to codify what 'saves' people - especially if they are going to judge someone else's salvation.
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
"even there we have two slightly different ideas."
It all goes together. There not different.
There's nothing wrong with using a few sentences, and even a paragraph or two, in explaining the truth of how Jesus the Christ is the only way to eternal life.
We could even mention how all mankind is guilty before God, because we are sinners.
The Gospel is pure and simple.
Some are ignorant of it, and others simply rebel against it.
Jesus said to those who rejected Him, that their father was the devil, not God, as they presumed.
His disciples said to the Lord that He was offending them. Jesus said, "Every plant that is not planted by My Father, shall be uprooted."
there's some meat to go along with the pure unadulterated sincere milk of the truth.
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Mike/Spud (and all),
It seems like you are a witty and thoughtful person. I do honestly wonder if you are more concerned about catching people in their words that really understanding people. I very well may be wrong, but from reading the whole thread of posts, it is hard not to think that. For most in this discussion, I wonder what is the point of much of all this. Are we really trying to communicate something, or just get our thoughts out, or sound really good, or trap each other with our words. Speaking the truth in love means both that you speak the truth and that you are doing that in a way that cares more about that person than yourself (nothing particularly insightful, I know).
To respond to your question of what must one do to be saved:
All of us our rebelious sinners against a righteous, holy God. Becauese of this we are deserving of His rightful wrath. In spite of our sin, God Himself sent His own Son to take on the punishment for our sin and the wrath of God that is on us because of it. Instead of what we deserve, we are given the righteousness of Jesus and His life by trusting in Him instead of ourselves. Because of Christ and His work on the cross for us, we can be saved through faith in Him.
This of course isn't everything the Bible says concerning salvation, but is a summary.
Feel free to interact as you desire.
Shannon Estell
Unfortunately - the discussion in this over zealous group, is not how one gets to heaven, but in fact if Tony Snow is. Somehow,and I don't care WHAT scripture verse you want to regurgitate, I need to make perfectly clear to the nay sayers in here...YOU simply don't know. Period. That is a fact. It is most distressing that "christians" in here presume to know or unashamedly question - the state of Tony Snow's soul. I have never, ever, seen in the scriptures any of the apostles or disciples discussing the eternal destination of a man soul. May God forgive your arrogant presumptuous souls.
"May God forgive your arrogant presumptuous souls."
He has, through the Cross. What a Savior I have; we all have, those who have trusted Christ, and who love Christ!
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
"Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blest assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And hath shed His own blood for my soul.
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!"-Horatio G. Spafford
Rom.2
[4] Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
"The ungodly do not realize that the goodness of God should lead them to repentance. The righteous, on the contrary, know that even the severity of God must redound to their good; for God wounds and again heals; He slays and again makes alive." -Luther
"Nothing can for sin atone,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
Naught of good that I have done,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Oh! precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
This is all my hope and peace,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
This is all my RIGHTEOUSNESS,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus."
To Christ be all the glory.
It seems like you are a witty and thoughtful person.
aw, shucks. (blushing)
but you left out 'humble'...
and i live by the old adage from 'mary poppins': a spoonful of sarcasm helps the medicine go down. :)
I do honestly wonder if you are more concerned about catching people in their words tha[n] really understanding people.
i expected this accusation. if you had only made this accusation and not included a well-thought-out response to what i asked, i would had accused you of intentionally avoiding the question (like others here have done).
but it's incorrect. perhaps partially true, because i believe people need to see for themselves the contradictions and incomplete explanations that sound good to others in the faith who speak the same language, but are rightly discarded by those in need of hearing it the most.
donsands said the two ideas he presented are one and the same; perhaps to him, knowing the whole story (well, at least as one group tells it), it does all fit together. but even then he posted it in two different comments, and even a casual reading will reveal differences.
so i go back to what i said earlier: people will hear the gospel from us/you in realtime, and will not have the luxury that the 20th century church does of full understandings of scripture, ten bibles in their homes, and websites like the Pyros* to go do research at.
and yet we're here (well, a lot of you are) saying that something that Tony did or didn't believe means he's burning in hell right now.
so my repeated challenge to all of you is: if you're really so certain of what those things are, you darn well better be able to explain them in specifics and in detail, with nothing superflous. sure, a preacher can embellish a sermon with illustrations and poems and jokes, and they can help convict a person. but, as i said, whatever the 'gospel' is that must be believed - if, in fact, a refusal to believe it in full damns one to hell - must be clear and understandable, or God ceases to be fair in His judgment of a sinner.
of course, this doesn't mention 'repenting,' or being 'baptized,' or understanding 'why [Jesus] did things,' or what 'trusting in Him instead of ourselves' really means.
do you see my point? every one of you will read that sentence i just wrote and say something to the effect of what you said in your comment - that i'm "more concerned about catching people in their words tha[n] really understanding people." and that has nothing to do with this discussion. rather, each of you needs to do some self-examination and ask yourself if you haven't been trying to catch Tony Snow in what he said/believed in order to say "a-HA! gotcha!" and consign him to hell for eternity.
mike r.
mikerucker.wordpress.com
for Tony:
colors i've none: dark or light
red, white or blue -
cold as my touch: freezing.
summoned by name,
i am the overseer over you.
given this command
to watcho o'er our miserable sphere
fallen from grace
called on to bring sun or rain...
fell with my angels
from a far better place.
offering services
for the saving of face.
- ian anderson, excerpt from 'A Passion Play,' 1973
*reference here should not be seen as an endorsement of the Pyromanias website, nor of the three wise men that produce the content therein.
donsands - 'it is well with my soul' - one of my favorite hymns. thanks for positing it. great story behind it, too, if you've never heard it.
mike r.
Mike/Spud,
First thanks for correcting my gramatical errors in the quotations, even after proofreading, still can't catch all of those. Second thanks for the outloud laughter you brought to me in front of my computer with the play on Mary Poppins line.
You make a number of good points that many of us need to hear. Those who believe the truth and critical centrality of the gospel need to be able to present it clearly and understandably with the realization that those we are talking to (especially in our day) don't have a broad understanding of Biblical things (especially Biblical language). Too many times we (myself included) spend so much time around those like ourselves that we don't know how to relate well to those who don't think/believe like we do.
The other things I would bring up from what you said is that besides just our feeble attempts at talking about and explaining the things of a infinite and holy God at one point in time with a particualar person, there is the work of God himself in that person's life that is way beyond us. When it comes down to it, what we are to do is to present the truth of God and his Word with boldness and love, but it is God alone who has the power to change the human heart that has no desire to follow him on its own.
As far as the whole Tony Snow thing goes, there is some validity to some of the discussion that is going on, because theological fidelity is important. However, it seems that sometime we can let our passion for the truth get the best of us and seemingly come across as taking on the role of God. Maybe what many of us should be doing is rejoicing in the possiblity (which seems to be a good possiblity) that even though Tony Snow was tied in some way at some time to the Catholic church, at some point he came to know and love Jesus and live his life as if that were the case. The reality is that God has saved many of us in similar fashion and continues to love us and be extremely patient with us even if we do not have all of our theological "p's" and "q's" in order.
You make a number of good points that many of us need to hear.
just a word of caution, shannon: agreeing with me in any way is the surest way to get banned at websites like these...
thanks for your kind, well-reasoned post. and i really cannot disagree with any of it.
of course, to say that God works with our feeble (and, perhaps, incorrect) presentations of the gospel makes one wonder if God is able to work without any presentation from error-prone evangelicals. but that would be opening an entirely new can of worms...
...that even though Tony Snow was tied in some way at some time to the Catholic church...
well, i refuse to continue debating that point. to think that all catholics throughout history (i mean, Peter was the first pope, right?) are hell-bound is, i believe, not only misguided but seems to be totally devoid of any Christian charity or humility.
besides, i'm getting ready to order two books from amazon:
Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on Romanism by 'Bible Christians'
and,
What Catholics Really Believe-Setting the Record Straight: 52 Answers to Common Misconceptions About the Catholic Faith
(she said i needed educatin' - gotta go to school...)
mike rucker
fairburn, ga, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Mike/Spud,
Man, you really like trying to get people all fired up huh? You know what that comment about Peter being the first Pope is going to do! Seriously, I think you already know that I wasn't saying anything along the lines of all catholics (or any who have ever been) are hellbound. If that were true it would include my wife, who was raised catholic, and although would now not agree with what the catholic church teaches, believes that there were many things about her upbringing that God used to bring her to himself.
On another topic have you checked out the article that JT has posted on in this blog today titled "Truly Reformed" - from Ray Ortland. I'd love to hear what you think of it.
Good talking with you. By the way I don't know who Ian Anderson is, that you keep quoting, but was wondering do you happen to be a fan of Bill Mallonee/Vigilantes of Love?
So here's my meta-comment on this meta.
Folks who cared about Tony Snow, and love the saving Gospel of Christ, express concern, because Snow may have been a Roman Catholic, and the RCC preaches a perverted, non-saving dyspel of faith + works.
There's a twofold response:
1. Misplaced (and quickly-refuted) accusations, falsely judging motives.
2. Attempts to portray Rome's false gospel as Biblical — also quickly-refuted.
However, it must be noted: this response itself underscored the validity of the originally-expressed concern.
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ian wrote a short piece on the tull website, remembering tony snow: Tony Snow: A Tribute.
also contains a not-so-subtle (and 'descriptive' as only ian can do it) suggestion for all of us to follow tony's lead and get checked appropriately for colon cancer.
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
p.s. on ian's (cod)piece:
"Life would indeed be a bore if all of your buddies agreed with everything you said and tap-danced to the same tired riff."
- ian anderson
how i overlooked this quote in light of our sparring here is beyond me ... obviously need to get another cup of joe this morning.
m.r.
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