Two Cheers for the Resurgence of Calvinism in Evangelicalism: A Wesleyan-Arminian Perspective
157 comments | Permalink The rise of what is popularly termed “Calvinism” or “Reformed theology” among younger evangelicals is well known. Here are a few observations from a sympathetic (albeit quite unconvinced) observer.
I. Two Cheers
The first cheer: These “New Calvinists” care about theology. They really care. A lot. They understand that doctrine matters for the life of the soul – and for the life of the church. They read voraciously, they discuss passionately, and they write prolifically. They understand that there are important existential and pastoral implications, and they want to see a “pattern of sound doctrine” become deeply ingrained in their personal, familial, and ecclesial lives.
They have a strong commitment to the authority of Scripture, and they want to know God as he reveals himself – and not as we might like him to be. They take seriously, and defend energetically, such doctrines as substitutionary atonement and the classic Protestant account of justification. Moreover, (to understate things drastically) they care about the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Ours is a context in which these doctrines are considered unimportant – ours is also a context in which these doctrines sometimes are charged with being sub-biblical and even non-Christian. What’s not to like about seeing so many people care so much about theology? And what’s not to appreciate about seeing so many people completely committed to worshiping God as he graciously reveals himself to us?
These New Calvinists care about theology. A lot. More importantly, though, they care about God. They exhibit passion for God – they want to know his greatness and revel in his grace. Theology for them is anything but a parlor game; nor is it only a means to some supposedly greater end (as in: “well, people in our churches are dissatisfied with their level of understanding, so let’s market more depth”). Theology is important because it is all about God: knowing, worshiping, glorifying, and enjoying him.
This brings me to my second cheer: these New Calvinists care about holiness. To know God is to know that God is holy. The New Calvinists get that, and they want their lives to be in step with him. They are anything but content with a soteriology that reduces redemption to a cosmic I-pass or “get out of hell free” card. No, they know that God is holy, and they know that to walk with the Holy One is to be transformed. Thus they know that the doctrine of sanctification matters, and they pursue holiness vigorously. Some of them offer testimonies in which they describe their “discovery of divine sovereignty” in language similar to the way some Christians in the Wesleyan tradition refer to a “second definite work of grace” or “second crisis experience.” And all of this for good reason: they read the Puritans and (especially) Edwards. They know that holiness matters. They get it. And I, for one, appreciate it.
II. Only Two Cheers? Some Cautionary Notes and Advice for which No One Really Asked
I thank God for what is so good about this New Calvinism, but I also have some concerns. Trying really hard to leave the substantive theological disagreements aside for now, I mention a few observations about some rather worrisome features of this movement.
One is this: they would do well to know their own tradition better. Consider as a case study the doctrine of divine sovereignty. I take it to be universally accepted (or at least nearly so) among the New Calvinists that divine sovereignty entails determinism. But Richard Muller (a top-tier Reformation scholar and the leading historian of 17th century Reformed theology) insists that within post-Reformation scholasticism there is “not even a tendency toward metaphysical determinism” (PRRD, I, p. 128). Muller says this as he is applying the finishing touches to the coffin for the old “central dogma” myth. But it seems quite obvious to me that there indeed is a central dogma to the New Calvinism: belief that God determines everything, and that he does so for his own glory, is taken to be necessary and sufficient. If you are a Christian who believes this, then you can safely claim to be “Reformed.” But by more traditional accounts, it is less than obvious that this is either necessary or sufficient.
Furthermore, it would be good if they would set themselves to the task of coming to a better understanding of the broader Christian tradition. I know that we all need this advice (well, at least I do), but it seems to me that the New Calvinists are far more interested in reading Edwards or Owen (worthy reads to be sure) than they are in mining the riches of patristic theology or grappling with the subtleties of medieval scholasticism. This is, I fear, to the detriment of the movement, and more development in this area might go some distance toward loosening the unhealthy reliance of some of these New Calvinists on what might be called the “Neo-Reformed Magisterium” (the small group of theologians and conference speakers who are sometimes quoted as the final word on any theological topic at issue... if you doubt what I say, consult Collin Hansen’s sobering observations about “Piper fiends” and those who “worship” John Piper, Young, Restless, Reformed, pp. 14, 46).
No theological tradition has cornered the market on arrogance. I have been accused of it (sometimes, I fear, with very good reason). Yet there seems to be – though I’m sure that what I say here is highly fallible – an amazing quantity of it among the New Calvinists. I’ve been told that my resistance to “the doctrines of grace” (no hubris in that label?) is a sign of my probable reprobation. I’ve had the senior pastor of a fine evangelical church tell me that although we were welcome to attend, I could not expect to be involved in any way because I was not “Reformed” – even though this particular church was not confessionally Reformed at all (their official statement of faith was generically evangelical). A friend (who teaches theology in a seminary in the Methodist tradition) told me of helping an incoming student (at a seminary in the Reformed tradition) move into a neighboring house. When the incoming student – who, if memory serves, was about to begin an MDiv – discovered that my friend was a Wesleyan, he quickly said “you guys don’t think much about things, do you?” Another friend expressed doubts about aspects of Calvinism and then was rejected by a missions agency for perceived confusion about the gospel. Alas, such stories are not rare. They are legion. Again, I am well aware that New Calvinism does not have a monopoly on theological arrogance, and I’m also very happy to say that many Calvinists do not exhibit this at all. And perhaps it is simply easier to spot it in someone else. Still, though, I mention it as an abiding concern.
I thank God for these New Calvinists, and sometimes I’m convicted to pray for the blessing of their ministries. I appreciate so much their evident concern for biblical and theological fidelity, their passion for God and his glory, and their heartbeat that Christ be exalted and sinners redeemed. And I pray that we will know that we belong to one another in the communion of the Triune God, that we will understand that we are called to live and love together, and that we will see more clearly the greatness of the sheer, unalterable goodness of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.



157 Comments:
Great post. A welcome exhortation to those (including myself) who are striving to hold humbly to reformed theology. If the doctrines of grace produce a pharisee mindset where we're looking for an Armenian under every rock, then something is wrong.
We must speak to those who don't hold to reformed theology as our brothers and not as the enemy. If these same brothers choose to attack or demean, should that change the way in which we deal with them? Not according to scripture.
Not worth posting. Re: George Whitefield 2 volume biography by Arnold Dallimore for my final word on the "controversy". There is no unity without purity my friends.
i took the time yesterday to read a post - and the nearly 250 comments that went with it - about calvinists over on the jesus creed blog.
certainly one-sided (until the ed/brad/scott wrestling match near the end), but since it was my-sided i enjoyed reading it. :)
SBC membership and baptisms are declining.
Calvinism in the SBC is seeing a resurgence.
you do the math.
and, no, this isn't another opp'y to pull further into book-lined rooms and say, "well, Jesus said the world would hate us - i guess this just proves Him right."
it's time to read again that "it is God's desire that none should perish" and realize this is much more in line with the God all of us see working in our own lives, and not "it is God's desire to make some for kindling just to keep the campfire going..."
yeah, i know all of the verses you're going to throw at me. bandwidth is cheap; use it as you will - or maybe as God wills :) - but my skin is thick just like my head.
oh - and my middle, too.
everything but my wallet, it seems, these days...
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Thanks for posting these comments! I too am not from/in the reformed tradition and I also see much of the greatness that Thomas McCall sees. I am a voracious reader of many in the Reformed tradition and I loath the new liberalism of the Emergent crowd. Unfortunately I have experienced what Thomas described at the end of his article, the ridicule of being an "Armenian" (which I am not) and the inability to join a mission sending organisation because I "misunderstood" the gospel (which I don't think I have). I also have much doubt that the Reformed guys have determinism sewed up but I think that their perspective sheds new light for us going forward.
A great post. Those of us who are part of the "Calvinist resurgence" should be humbly thankful that one thing people notice about us is our love of Scriptural theology and the holiness of God. We should also be ashamed that another thing they notice is our pride. There's only so many times we can throw out "a proud Calvinist is an oxymoron" rather than admitting this is a sinful tendency of ours.
Mike, your comment "SBC membership and baptisms are declining. Calvinism in the SBC is seeing a resurgence. you do the math" contains a logical fallacy. The two facts being true doesn't mean one caused the other. In fact, membership and baptisms are rising among SBC churches that tend toward Calvinism. That seems to argue against your implication that Calvinism is the problem.
I am strongly reformed and I agree with the cautions of Thomas McCall. I have seen it in my own life and in the lives of my friends. Thankfully, we are getting beyond proving everyone else wrong theologically and taking these wonderful doctrines and asking, "how does this truth affect my walk with the LORD?" That's not to say that pride has been eradicated, but that should go without saying since I had the same pride problem when I was an Arminian.
Thank you for the post Justin and thank you for the caution and encouragement Thomas.
JT -
Thanks for posting this. I like his comment about the Neo-Reformed Magisterium.
z
Mike Rucker,
Mind a little Post hoc ergo propter hoc?
Very good post. I "ride the fence" in between the Arminian and Calvinist ways of thinking, and typically believe that both are true... no matter how mutually exclusive they would SEEM to be to human understanding.
I appreciate your thoughtful post, and I think you looked honestly at both sides of the issue.
So Mike, if Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church began seeing a marked increase in both membership and baptisms, should we therefore assume that his theology is correct?
Or, to put it another way, Lakewood's membership in the 2-3 years I lived in Houston either (A) held fairly constant, or (B) grew rapidly during certain seasons. (I can't comment on baptisms there.) Does the fact that people AREN'T leaving Lakewood mean that Osteen's prosperity gospel is somehow more correct than, say, the fully Arminian church that I attend (whose membership has declined as a direct result of some leadership struggles that have been ongoing there)?
You're asserting a causal relationship between numbers and theology that, frankly, is skeptical at best.
I'm thankful for McCall's post--particularly for the humility with which it was offered. McCall recognizes (even if Mike Rucker doesn't) that while the "New Calvinists" have more than their fair share of pride/arrogance issues (and I count myself in that number and am daily praying for God's Grace to transform me), they don't have the market cornered on this.
I'm also thankful for his challenge to the New Calvinists to become even more vigorous in their research, both into their own traditions and into others. I hope that many among the New Calvinists will take this challenge seriously--I know that I plan to! I also hope, however, that Arminians would take this more seriously as well. One needs only to look as far as Roger Olson (Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities) to see that Calvinism doesn't corner the market here, either.
JT -
Thanks for posting this. I like his comment about the Neo-Reformed Magisterium.
On a different note... The slightest understanding of unconditional election should produce the most humble people on the planet. Sadly this is often not the case. Seems like a pretty harsh disconnect.
z
As an Arminian (Armenia is a country, not a theological stance) who went to a predominately Calvinist school, I was told multiple times that I was not saved, that I held to a different gospel, and that I was a false teacher.
Those who called me friends and had table fellowship with me often said that I held a different gospel, but that did not mean I was unsaved, I was just barely saved.
I appreciate the new theology and the stress on doctrine and on Biblical Theology as a discipline. I regret that this can be accompanied by the idea that this doctrine is inerrant rather than the Bible being inerrant.
Why are other Christians seen as the enemy in need of conversion rather than going into the world and converting those who are lost?
As someone who's probably a "New Calvinist" myself, I must say McCall is extremely perceptive. His praise for the Godly aspects are dead-on, as are his criticisms.
The Neo-Reformed Magisterium comment is very convicting. At the Resurgence Conference in Seattle, there was a Q&A with Mark Driscoll moderating to Matt Chandler (probably part of this movement) and John Piper. Someone asked a question about how you keep from following a theologian and follow Christ. Matt Chandler said, "Well, I have a picture of John Piper on my refridgerator, so..."
It was funny, but also convicting. I don't follow Piper, Driscoll, Mahaney, MacArthur, etc... I follow Christ and the Bible. Can be difficult to keep that straight if your not constantly examining yourself.
Good post. As part of this New Calvinist movement (I'm 22 and a fan of Piper) I guess I demonstrate at least one of his points in that I did not realize that divine sovereignty does not imply determinism. (Of course it also depends on how one defines determinism - I certainly do not think it implies determinism as it is spoken of in philosophy.)
It's an interesting point though that I'd be interested in reading more about. But off the top of my head I really can't figure out how God ordering all things for his glory and our good would be compatible with anything other than determinism.
Still, he clearly knows more about theology than I do so I'll submit to his judgment for now.
Good post though and the other points seem largely accurate in my experience.
Some of you remarked on being turned down by missions agencies.
While I don't deny that Arminians are Christians, I would prefer to support missions agencies that require a Reformed understanding of theology of their missionaries. Arminians have a different understanding of election and usually have a different understanding of the atonement (often holding to a moral governmental theory of the atonement).
These are important (even if not essential) doctrines. Would you have a problem with excluding people from a missions agency because of these differences? Why or why not?
That's a great post, warts and all. I hope many, many people receive it.
Count me in. Great post. Great reminder.
I'd fit under "New Calvinist" and I need this post.
Thanks.
mike's wife:
mike, did you go over to challies or BTW and post something again?
mike:
(long pause) maaaaaybe... why?
mike's wife:
BECAUSE OUR INBOX IS FILLING UP WITH THEIR EMAILS!!!!
mike:
(sheepishly) uhhhh ... sorry. you can move them into my folder - they all say the same thing anyway...
mike's wife:
(exasperated sigh) i thought we agreed you were going to stop doing that - or at least you promised to practice safe blogging.
mike:
i know ... but it's like an addiction ... maybe i need to get some help.
mike's wife:
imagine that...
one of the reasons that choirs sound so nice is that there are many voices singing many notes. when everybody sings in unison, the colors and the beauty and the harmony are lost.
(here - i'll help you out with some responses:
(a) yes, mike, but they must all be singing from the same sheet of music; or,
(b) yes, mike, but they must sing the notes as they were written; or,
(c) yes, but they need to give authority to the Conductor and not go off on their own;
or, perhaps, more fitting,
(d) yes, mike, but in this choir, only the Conductor decides who can join and who can't - He doesn't even give auditions!)
:)
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
It was a very profitable article....though i maintain what Spurgeon said..."Calvinism is the Gospel" and i believe that arrogant Calvinism is an oxymoran. The accusations that the SBC memberships and baptisms are declining and Calvinism is resurging are totally unfounded. Perhaps the numbers are decreasing because the young generation of Calvinists are sick of a cheap gospel and are telling people to count the cost of discipleship. This is a passion on my heart because I grew up in Ultrafundamentalism and the salvation i knew for 18 years was a cheap gospel that was good for one free pass out of hell and into heaven. We calvinists must be humble but we must also be unmovable...Arminianism is not the gospel. It is a partial truth masquerading as a whole truth and is a complete untruth. Soli Deo Gloria
So...what are you saying Mike? Contradicting understandings of plain Scripture are beautiful?
Andy,
I do not follow your logic at all on this issue. In fact, the vast majority of missionaries I know are more Arminian than Calvinistic. It is only natural for people who are trying to reach their respective countries for Christ to believe in more of a universal love and sacrifice that Christ has and did for us rather than a specific one for a select group of people. In fact, being a hardcore Calvinist on the mission field could me more grounds for being more passive and not pursuing people at all costs. Why you would prefer mission agencies be more reformed is beyond me. I personally do not care if they are reformed or not, and as long as they have a heart for people and the Gospel I feel comfortable giving them my support.
Why even the Arminian view of election would factor into your decision is also confusing. On the one hand you have people who believe God elected people from before time began to come to know him, and on the other you have people who believe that we are elected for a purpose...for the purpose of proclaiming the Gospel to others, much like Israel's election in the Old Testament (to be a light and blessing to the nations). I, personally, feel much more comfortable in regards to mission having a more Arminian view of election, because they every soul becomes one worthy of the Gospel rather than a select group.
In regards to the atonement, it is a common fallacy to believe that penal substitution IS the Gospel and all other views are wrong. This is a shame, as all views have something to contribute and not one of them captures the essence of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
Again, if there is an agency, regardless of where they side on this issue, willing to send people into the world for the purpose of telling others the good news of Jesus Christ and what he has done, then why should we withhold our support from them based on where they stand on this issue? I find it very troubling and sad that many of my reformed brothers and sisters believe my theological leanings are dangerous since they are different than theirs. Calvinism is not the Gospel, and neither is Arminianism. To be willing to distance ourselves from those on either end of the spectrum when both sides can be supported scripturally is immature, dogmatic, and simply divisive. I am glad a reputable scholar commented on this issue with such an irenic and peaceful tone...and that my Calvinist brothers on here agree with him! We would all do well to question and be critical of those inside of our own camp...even John Piper
A.C.,
you can't be serious. This is the attitude the article speaks about, and comments like those are what tend to drive people like myself away from Calvinism
For the sake of humility and biblical meekness countering the spirit of theological and sometimes personal arrogance in young and growing theologians, Helmut Thielicke's A Little Exercise for Young Theologians should be required reading. Too often theological knowledge is reckoned a suitable substitute for Christian discipline and maturity by those who believe themselves to be full of knowledge.
"In fact, being a hardcore Calvinist on the mission field could me more grounds for being more passive and not pursuing people at all costs."
Can we agree not to be misinformed Calvinist AND not be misinformed Arminians?
That statement is so clearly not true as to be embarrassing.
In defense of the Reformed position, I go to a Pentecostal Bible College in Southern California. We Reformed people are misunderstood, maligned and ridiculed there. I have had to stay under the radar. More so, in all of evangelicalism we are difficient in knowledge of church history or other traditions. We have seen people in the emergent church engaging traditions, and we seen the results! I think there should be an intelligent engagement with other traditions and with church history. And as for the charges of arrogance: guilty as charged, but aren't we all guilty of that? As for the fatalism charge, it's way more nuanced than that. The real question is what are the options? Few of them have God at the center of the universe.
Daryl,
In no way did I attribute this to Calvinists nor am I misinformed about their theology. I was making a point that the basic beliefs of Calvinism could tend to make one lean that way far greater than an Arminian understanding could. It doesn't often do this, thank God, nor do I view Calvinists this way, but the basic beliefs of Calvinism could be looked at (immaturely) as anti-missional and grounds for passivity.
Luke...
No problem. Thanks for the clarification.
AC Diel
It is a partial truth masquerading as a whole truth and is a complete untruth
Well....make up your mind. Is it partial truth or complete untruth? Or maybe it's partial untruth and complete truth.
What? Something can't be partial and complete at the same time? To say it is doesn't make any sense?
what gobbledy-gook thinking!
Luke and Andy,
McCall seems to hold to penal substitution, which the Wesleys also cherished. Penal substitution is not the sole possession of Calvinists.
Luke, you wrote:
In regards to the atonement, it is a common fallacy to believe that penal substitution IS the Gospel and all other views are wrong. This is a shame, as all views have something to contribute and not one of them captures the essence of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
J.I. Packer in his essay "What Did the Cross Achieve?" (reprinted in In My Place Condemned He Stood) argues that Christ Our Substitute is the heart of the gospel, but does not exclude Christ Our Example or Christ the Conqueror of Evil. These truths are not competing but complementary.
If George Whitefield was running Together for the Gospel, he'd probably invite Wesley to speak (not in the same year as Toplady, of course). Fellow Calvinists: which contemporary Arminians could you be "together for the gospel" with?
When the YRR article first came out I commented in a class that at best most of those represented in it were 'Calvinistic', in that they held to one particular view of soteriology. One might even say that this is a return to the Particular Baptist tradition. Being 'Reformed' is much different; its deeper than than the "doctrines of Grace" and divine sovereignty.
In addition to reading the ECFs, many included in this resurgence would do well to read, among others, Bavinck.
i am grateful for the two cheers and the cautionary tales.
but in all fairness, not all non-Calvinists are as kind and generous towards neo-Calvinists as our brother Thomas McCall.
i lean towards a neo-Calvinist theology, but i come from and serve among an Arminian tradition. in my experience Arminians also tend to be critical, proud, and defensive towards anyone who questions or opposes their particular theological convictions.
personally, i think some of my Arminian brethren are too human-centered. dare to question human liberty, human ability, or human responsibility and see what happens.
yikes!
Interesting. There's 31 comments for this post debating Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and only 1 for JT's post regarding the blessedness of God.
As a Calvinist myself, I catch myself being more passionate about defending these theological issues than I do about reveling in the blessedness of God.
With a 31 to 1 post ratio, perhaps some of you are in the same boat?
Humbly,
MSJ
Fellow Calvinists: which contemporary Arminians could you be "together for the gospel" with?
Though I don't know him or his stuff very well, I know that Jerry Vines has been at Shepherds' Conferences in years past.
For me, I'd be T4G with fellow reader Johnny Dialectic.
liza....no offense but your logic skills are a bit rusty. I said...Arminianism is a partial truth masquerading as the whole truth which is a complete untruth (that statement was made by JT the author of this blog...so i guess he has gobblidy gook thinking too...also...in English this is called a simile its where u draw a comparison using like or as) Now back to what I said....Arminianism takes part of the truth, tells everyone it is the whole truth which makes it untrue....see this is what Satan does...he can not create evil in of himself...he can only take what God has done or said and He twists it...so thats what i meant...hope that helps you.
i think sometimes because people are adamant about the gospel and grace they are considered proud. Arrogant Calvinism is an oxymoran, but seriously...Arminians are just as proud by continually displaying false humility and trashing reformed pride. I want to see some blog defending Arminianism...or good books...or conferences...oh wait John 3:16 conference isnt gonna be streamed....hmmmmm....i think our Arminian friends should stop attacking the pride and attack what they disagree with
i don't even want to read the comments, because i'm sure i'll be disappointed. (i was with some of the first few.)
so let me just say, thanks for this post! i met Tom McCall when visiting Trinity and he is a thoughtful, humble man. as a "New Calvinist" at a not-particularly-Calvinist college, i've come to appreciate other traditions (even though i think i'm right) and not see them as probable reprobates but brothers and sisters, and it's because of people like Dr. McCall that i was able to come around. i hope people take this to heart.
oh, and i agree - i don't know why we call them "the doctrines of grace," as though we Calvinists cornered the market on grace. there's a lot more to grace than the five points no matter what framework you hold to.
for those who think I hate Arminians....NO WAY...my whole family is...i must say...if every Arminian and Calvinist could confront like Dr. McCall there would be much more harmony...Thanks Dr. McCall
As one who believes that the Reformed views of God's sovereignty and soteriology (His plan of salvation) are indeed the views which most reflect the Bible's teaching, I want to thank Dr. McCall for this post. I fear that he is right about too many of us. Have we really, truly understood the implications of Reformed (consistently Biblical) doctrine?
Reformed theology, rightly understood and lived out, leaves *no* room for arrogance. If we truly believe that God chooses to save a certain unknowable (to us) number of sinners PURELY because He is gracious, and NOT because one sinner is somehow "better" or "smarter" than another, than there simply *is* no room for arrogance on our part.
Fellow Reformed Christians, I ask, did we come to hold what we believe to be the most Biblical views of God's sovereignty and soteriology because we are smarter or morally "better" than other people? No, a thousand times no! We did so because God graciously opened our eyes to those truths in the Scriptures. Arminians who have not been brought to those understandings are still very much our brothers and sisters in Christ. How many of us took a good while to come to our current Reformed convictions? I know I did. How, then, can we be arrogant and unloving with other Christians who have not reached those conclusions? Yes, they are *Christians*-- because salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, not through our understanding of the extent of God's sovereignty. Let us not become Hyper-Calvinists, for that twisted view is a denial of the both the Gospel and the common bond that all believers have in Christ!
Yes, I am Reformed, but A.W. Tozer (who was not) has taught me so much about God's greatness and beauty! How could I possibly not consider him a brother in Christ? The same goes for Charles Wesley, who was not Reformed, and yet whose soundly Biblical hymns are sung in many Reformed churches! We Reformed Christians must *not* go off the deep end by denying the faith of those who differ with us on the extent of God's sovereignty! If I am impassioned about this, it because I care about God's glory-- and His glory is *not* shown in our shunning, or otherwise mistreating, faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who do not believe exactly as we do about God's sovereignty and soteriology. Reformed convictions and humility *about* our convictions should go together, for us, as naturally as living and breathing. So should our our own personal joy in God's grace to us go together with our joy in His saving those with whom we don't always agree, but yet share the same Saviour and the same faith in Him.
JT,
Thanks for this post. I really appreciate this perspective.
It reminds me of Arminian, Roger Olson explaining that often in today's pews and pulpits we find semi-pelagianism.
Calvinists aren't that crazy after all! ;)
Mark
p.s. Reading some of the comments helped inspire a little song.
Man, there were more than a couple of typos in my post... I'm just saying, especially to my Reformed brothers and sisters, that we have to remember that salvation is by grace through faith, *not* by exact theological understanding regarding issues about which true Christians have differed for centuries. Do I believe that Reformed convictions are more faithful to what the Bible teaches than Arminian convictions? YES, I firmly do. However, Arminians *are* still my brothers and sisters in Christ, and many of them have a great deal to teach me about loving God and living for Him. To my zealous Reformed brothers and sisters who are doubtful about the faith of Ariminans, please read A. W. Tozer's book, The Pursuit of God. Read and learn-- and possibly, be humbled, to God's glory.
I would never have seen this post if you had not posted it. Thank you! Once again, the criticism of the young and Calvinist is not doctrinal but practical. We all need a reminder to let our theology of a great God work into a life of great dependence on Him.
I really don't know what to make of the part about Muller. Is there some complex definition of "determinism" over against "sovereignty" and/or "predestination"? I'm really confused. I know that "predestination" does not imply "fatalism," but that doesn't quite seem to be what he is talking about. I'm totally confused. JT, can you point us to some resources or give us some wisdom on this?
A.C.,
Your comments leave me appalled. You said,
"Arminianism takes part of the truth, tells everyone it is the whole truth which makes it untrue....see this is what Satan does...he can not create evil in of himself...he can only take what God has done or said and He twists it."
This comment just seems extremely arrogant to me. Do you think Calvinism is the whole truth? I don't think either one is the whole truth, and I personally don't care what JT says about it. Then, to top it off you compare what Satan did to what Arminians do!! Get another example next time bro, because Arminians are not Satan. Calvinists I encounter are just as inconsistent and eisegetical as any Arminian I've ever encountered, so to think one side is "biblical" and the other "emotional" is just completely ridiculous. There are absolutely legit scholars on both ends of the spectrum, and this alone should humble us into thinking that both sides probably have some truth to them.
Christopher, you said:
"did we come to hold what we believe to be the most Biblical views of God's sovereignty and soteriology because we are smarter or morally "better" than other people? No, a thousand times no! We did so because God graciously opened our eyes to those truths in the Scriptures. Arminians who have not been brought to those understandings are still very much our brothers and sisters in Christ."
I know and understand the plea you were making to your Calvinist brothers with this. However, behind your words is a very arrogant stance, "God has opened our eyes to see the truth, he just hasn't opened theirs yet." Maybe I feel that God has opened my eyes to see the truth of Arminianism and shown me the fallacies of Calvinism. How would you respond if I were to claim this?
I believe it is stances like these that the article is trying to warn against. Calling yourselves the more "biblical" side (whatever that means) and claiming God has opened your eyes to it. Claiming your side has the whole truth and the other side is partial truth which claims to be the whole truth which in turn makes it untrue. Claiming to be "God-centered" and the other side "man-centered", claiming to have a higher view of "grace" while the other side more of "works".
It is comments like this that drives McCall to write what he does, and the very statement you seem to be vehemently affirming and praising is completely ineffective in the words you type. Am I the only one who finds this arrogant and offensive? Demeaning and degrading?
luke, luke, luke...
don't get pulled too deeply into the fray here. you're not going to convince a single one of these guys or gals to change their minds; and vice versa.
now, some of them will move in the direction that anyone who ain't planting TULIPs is on the quick road to hell; fine - it's only a matter of time before they move on to more important subjects, like arguing about who gets to sit closest to Jesus in heaven. a previous comment even said, "it's because of people like Dr. McCall that i was able to come around," like she was running a high fever and covered with sores when she was so deluded as to believe something other than 'the gospel.' see what you're up against?
you just have to chuckle, shake your head, and remember this: when we all get to heaven, we'll get to laugh at them for ALL ETERNITY!!! BWAAH HA HA HA!!!
:)
mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Luke, I can see how you might interpret my words as arrogant. As a Reformed Christian, however, I believe that *all* theological understanding ultimately comes as a gracious gift from God (not based on the believer's merit) -- and therefore, I thank God for whatever understanding He has given me. That's not arrogance-- it's gratitude that is aware that I don't deserve *anything* from God except Hell.
Luke, I have lived on both sides of this question. I fought against Reformed thought for longer than I care to remember. It is God who helped me to see, and brought me to accept, that these ideas are indeed expressed in the Bible. Why do other Christians not see or accept that these ideas are in the Bible? I can't say, because I don't know their hearts, and even more importantly, I can't truly see how God is working in their lives (especially when I don't know them personally). Ultimately, perhaps people simply come to see certain things in the time that God chooses to reveal those things to them. What I do know is that I am not "better" than any other Christian for having seen and accepted that so-called "Reformed" truths are in the Bible. I'm not morally better, more deserving, smarter, or any of those things. Is it wrong of me, though, to say that Reformed doctrine is more Biblical than Arminianism, if I have studied both sides (and once held to the other myself!) and reached the conclusion that one *is* more faithful to the Bible's teaching? Surely, Dr. McCall believes that his Arminian convictions are more Biblical than Reformed ones-- and he would probably say as much. Why should I not do the same, after being an Arminian Christian for years, and then coming to what I believe to be more Biblical conclusions?
Mike
What in the world is wrong my friend? Your posting behavior is quite strange and your comments are lacking in the love of Christ.
blessings
Christopher,
We can agree to disagree. Just know though, that I was on the other side of the spectrum for years. I was certainly a Calvinist and believed the Bible was so explicit about it that to not be one was foolish! Then, I was "enlightened" and God showed me the truth and that which was more biblical.
So my point to you is that this is very subjective from person to person. I believe Arminianism is more biblical and God showed me that truth, and you believe Calvinism is more biblical and God showed you that truth. I just ask that you don't come across as dogmatic and arrogant to those of a different theological persuasion than yourself...and always know that there is a possibility that you might be wrong...I know I do. Like I said before, there are legitimate scholars on both sides of the spectrum (Calvinist = Schreiner, Piper, Ware, Moo, Carson; Arminian (or non-Calvinist) = McKnight, I. Howard Marshall, James Dunn, Roger Olson, Grant Osbourne, Ben Witherington), so the fact that these brilliant minds come to completely opposite conclusions should humble us and make us not hold on too tightly or die for either system.
I appreciate your remark, and can sense your tone behind it is irenic and humble. Just try to be a little more careful with how you phrase things sometimes. I look at you as a dear brother in Christ, and I hope you can look at me the same way.
Mike, Luke, etc...
You think its bad on the blog comments? Try going to seminary with these knuckleheads! It's brutal. I was in the lunchroom one time, saw a guy with a Cincinnati Reds hat on and thought, "hey, here's someone I can talk sports with!" "Red's fan?" "No, not really... the C stands for Calvinism." Now when I see someone at seminary with a Phillies hat, I just assume their a Piper fan.
Actually, as a former "New Calvinist" it was sitting around and listening to all these guys argue and debate that "brought me around" to a more moderate position.
Peace
Yes Luke....I should perhaps choose another illustration because I do believe arminians can be brothers... YES unless you are emerging and live in a world of doubt....I can be certain that Calvinism is the gospel....Arminian mangles the gospel...take that how you will...the gospel is supposed to offend...I can love you in the Lord...I can disagree on the millennial positions, tongues, trichotomy/dichotomy....but i will not disagree on the gospel!!!
A.C.,
You can't be serious!!! You are equating Calvinism with the Gospel! This is something I don't even think Piper, Grudem, Carson, or JT would do! Brother, seriously, you need to re-evaluate what the Gospel is and change your thoughts in this regard. Listen to these comments and tell me if you don't get offended and angered:
"Calvinism strangles the truth and the Gospel. Calvinism is a false Gospel and leads to fatalism. Arminianism is the true Gospel and anybody who doesn't believe that is unbiblical and a borderline heretic! I have no doubt that Arminianism is the Gospel and Calvinism distorts this. You don't like what I say? I don't give a crap! The Gospel is supposed to offend people, so you being offended means I'm telling you the truth and the Gospel so get over yourself and study the Bible. If you studied your Bible objectively like me, you would realize how utterly false and hopeless Calvinism is and how right Arminianism is. Calvinism just causes people to live passive lives and not care about other people. Calvinists think we're robots and puppets, and that God only chose a select group of people to spend eternity with him. The Gospel is that Christ died for all!! Calvinism is a false Gospel and if you don't see that then you're blind! You mad about that? I don't care b/c I'm telling you the truth and the truth hurts! The Gospel offends, so take it or leave it!"
Brother, you make your side embarrassed when you make comments like that, and they do absolutely no good whatsoever. I never see Jesus teaching about Calvinism, and you're essentially claiming the Gospel to be a set of beliefs that was formulated in the 17th century. My dear Calvinist brothers, please rebuke this man before I lose heart!
luke....i dont take offense to that because your statments are ridiculous ....so i guess you would be upset at Spurgeon who said..."Calvinism is the Gospel" and Martin Luther who said, "anyone who attributes any part of salvation to the free will of man knows nothing of grace and has not learned Jesus Christ aright.".....anywho...im sorry to offend you....but i have to side with my fellow brothers in the faith....as Spurgeon also said...."Men are born arminians but Grace makes them Calvinists"
No, A.C., YOUR statements are completely ridiculous and you confuse the Gospel with a system. Simply backing up your point with a pastor from 200 years ago does not add any weight to the argument. I could frankly care less what Spurgeon and Luther both say, I only care what the text says. Did you even read the article that JT posted? YOU ARE THE TYPE OF CALVINIST MCCALL IS TALKING ABOUT! Get over yourself and realize what's important. You give your system a bad name, and I wish others would chime in.
Luke...I think you think I hate arminians....i dont....i just think they are very wrong...you wont persuade me and i doubt i will persuade you but i will not be moved. I maintain that Calvinism best denotes the gospel (Yes Jesus Christ is my saviour not John Calvin) I know the system and if you dont like the name you can join the ranks who call us biblicists or whatever...but what is attributed to calvinism is just what is made plain in the scripture...I dont hate arminians but it just bothers me when arminians pretend to be humble and attack calvinist pride...stop attacking our pride...i mean we are proud...so are arminians...so maybe we can help each other...but if you dont like calvinism then debate the issue...dont attack the character of those who hold it..
well luke....im glad a friend just emailed me and helped me out...im sorry if the earlier posts came across arrogant i didnt mean for them to....but i will be honest the last several have been in the flesh...so im done now...sorry to display the flesh....especially over the gospel...
Luke, thank you for the thoughts and the heart behind them, brother. You're obviously right-- we can both believe that God brought us to our conclusions, and that each conclusion is the Biblical one, respectively, and that this issue should not cause us to question each other's faith. That was exactly my point with my original post-- that Reformed Christians should not dare to question the faith of Arminian Christians, simply because Arminians have reached those conclusions. As I wrote above, I have learned much from A.W. Tozer, and I dearly love the hymns of Charles Wesley, and neither of them was Reformed. Both were faithful servants of Christ, from whom I still have very much to learn!
Perhaps part of the problem that you had with my phrasing simply comes from our different theological convictions? I can't know that for certain; I'm just proposing that as a possibility. Being Reformed, I believe that God is sovereignly in control of *all* things. As such, I also believe that it is *God* who ultimately brings understanding of the Bible and its teachings. For me, giving all credit to God for my theological understanding is simply part of affirming God's sovereignty. I see it as humility, actually, because I know that my understanding did not originate with myself-- nor was it a gift that God gave me because I "deserved" it. To you though, my description of God opening my eyes to certain truths came across as arrogant. To me, it was/is just an objective description of how God works in the believer's life, revealing truth in His time for His own purposes.
The "more Biblical" claims that I made about Reformed doctrine were not meant to offend anyone. To my mind, Arminian and Reformed Christians should *each* claim that their respective conclusion is the consistently Biblical one. Otherwise, why hold to it?
okay all...divine appointment...i am sitting in the coffee shop at my school studying and in walk my one of my best friends. He is one of these guys that after you talk with him..you just wanna go pray or something. Anyway the Lord just ripped me apart for my pride. I am firm about what I believe but God doesnt use pride. And the ironic thing is....my friend that walked in is an arminian. anyway....my apologies to all who read my rants for exibiting the T in TULIP. anywho i hope you can all forgive me. Let us all just keep the cross central!
I think those cheers are a bit much coming from an Arminian. If you are an Arminian (I am not), the God of Calvinism looks more like the despotic devil of hell than the God of Christianity. Boyd said it himself that it is hard to tell the difference between Calvinist's God and the devil. And this is true if you believe that wills are completely off limits to God. If you believe in the libertarian freedom of creatures and then hear Calvinists talking about how God ordained the fall, that's blasphemy.
Which mission sending agency would refuse someone because they are not reformed?
A.C. Diehl,
Thank you for your humility in correcting yourself. Posting in the flesh is certainly not reserved for Calvinists, so don't beat yourself up. Remember that confession leads to forgiveness (1 John 1:9).
Christopher Lake,
I thought your first post was clear myself, and I am an Arminian, so please do not feel as if you were coming across as arrogant, for I did not take you that way. I agree that we should all think that "my system is more Biblical than your system" or else we should not be holding to our system, hehe.
May God bless and build on the fruitful dialogue of this post and conversation.
www.roncfay.com/wordpress
A.C.,
Thank you, brother, for the humble attitude you have exhibited regarding this issue. It's always wonderful to see a brother admit and confess something he regrets and not try to defend his actions. I'm sorry if any of my words to you were harsh or offensive as well and hope we can have meaningful dialog in the future.
Christopher,
I also appreciate the humble spirit you have exhibited in your post. I can tell that both you and A.C. have taken this post by McCall to heart and it is wonderful to see. I must confess that my beliefs cause me to have this attitude sometimes as well because I'm so convinced of it! It's great that in the end we can all realize that we are still brothers in Christ on the same side. I'm glad to hear you say that you have learned from those who are of a different theological persuasion than you. I go to a pretty reformed seminary and love and relish many of my reformed teachers even though I disagree with them often. This is also why I think being in circles where you will be challenged in your beliefs is so healthy and challenging. I'm glad that I do not go to a full-blown Arminian seminary like Asbury or something b/c then I'd just be hearing stuff all day that I agree with. Though there are a few Arminian-leaning teachers at my school, they are certainly the minority. Thank you for also explaining the thought behind your prior statements as it made things much more clear (just understand that everyone reading may not understand that). You're right about the "more biblical" claims! That's why, frankly, I wish Christians would be much more reluctant to use that word in their vocabulary. There are lots of things that are biblical (slavery, murder, genocide, etc). The Gnostics thought they were "biblical", so did the Arians. So to me, it's just a loaded term that really doesn't mean much. I personally wish we would adopt the term "Christian" to replace "biblical". For instance, someone saying they have a "biblical worldview" is just nonsense to me, but for one to claim they have a "Christian" worldview means a great deal more. For one to claim their belief is "biblical" is just loaded, but for one to claim their belief is "Christian" makes it a bit more meaningful and authoritative. Just my conviction. thanks for the word!
I was very convicted by this post. I abhorred Calvinism when I first became a Christian. After studying Scripture I became passionately Reformed you could say. It was immediately beautiful and freeing but then I started becoming arrogant towards others who were "ignorant to sound doctrine." I know plenty of wonderful brothers and sisters in the Arminian camp who love Jesus more than I do.
My heart hasn't been right. With the wonderful knowledge of God's sovereignty, I should be leading the way in humility.
May my doctrine be seen before heard.