Homeschooling, Private School, and Public School
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Good pastoral words here from Josh Harris on the tendency to have pride and divide:
posted by JT at Monday, May 05, 2008
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31 Comments:
Good words.
I've had the somewhat unique experience of having been raised in all three camps. My first few years of school I was in a private school. I was then moved to public school for a few years before my parents decided to homeschool me and my sisters. For high school I was back in public school.
When it comes to educating our children, each situation is different and each decision is individual. As Harris says, we need to pray for each other. Pray that parents will make wise choices for their children. And pray that whatever parents do, they do it to the glory of God and they and their kids are drawn closer to Christ as a result.
And as you pray, pray for me! I have a daughter who is about to turn three. The school decision is getting closer and closer. We are leaning in one direction, but have that queasy feeling in the pit of our stomachs that all parents get. You know, the one that says, "Am I making the right decision, or am I about to ruin my kids' life..." Pray that we make the right decision, and that we trust God with our kids.
Thanks!
Chris
Our eldest is now a 4 year old and the education decision is staring us in the face. We have run the gamut of the advantage/disadvantage matrix of each educational type and we, also, are leaning in a specific direction... but the current direction is vastly different than our previously decided upon direction.
The lesson for us in that was... be open to the Spirit as you walk this path. There are advantages and disadvantages in every system and none are perfect (hence the need for constant parental guidance in the Word), but we must trust God that the educational method He directs us to use is the one for this season... we must be open for Him to change our hearts in each year of education... we never know where He might take our children.
Thanks for posting that. I was homeschooled in one of the more radical traditions--where if you didn't homeschool you were out of God's will. It was very heartening to hear a call to understanding and cooperation among the brethren in this area
I know that some will label me a "legalist" for what I say here, but I humbly disagree with two things Pastor Harris said: 1) "It doesn't matter" how parents educate their children" and 2) All can be glorifying to God.
Is it acceptable for a Christian parent to train their children according to the worldview of a non-Christian religion? Obviously not, for as Mr. Harris alludes to, we must educate our children according to a Biblical worldview.
While the Bible doesn't endorse either private or home schooling, it certainly rules out any education that denies Christ. Friends, government education is based on a systematic indoctrination of secular humanism (an anti-Christian religion) to the children that it educates.
If anyone is prepared to challenge this assertion, please first read two things: The Humanist Manifesto I,II; and J. Rousas Rushdoony's "The Messianic Character of American Education." I implore everyone to take the time to do this.
We also must understand that, just as in Science, subjects such as English, Math, History, and the Arts cannot in any sense be taught from a "neutral" perspective. Any system of education that teaches that man is central (either implicitly or explicitly) is sowing the seeds of unbelief and rebellion.
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Harris that the gospel is central when we deal with one another. Pride in one's method of education is sinful. I believe that pastors must deal gently and patiently with those who choose government education, helping them to understand the things I have mentioned here. It does, however, matter how we educate our children, and not all ways glorify the Lord.
As an aging youth worker I've seen it all..."we need to send our troops into the public school"; "Christian education is mandatory"; only homeschoolers are right. My wife and I have elected to homeschool our four kids; and it works for us.
But not for everybody. It depends on the school.
Candidly, I've preached in some Christian schools that I would not send my dog to.
I've seen homeschoolers abuse the freedom inherent.
And I've seen Christians in state schools shine brightly for Jesus.
As parents, the mandatory "key" is involvement.
Wherever our children go to school; we must be involved.
And, thanks for posting this; we must never look askance at some who are educating their children in a different manner.
Jason Roddy, you are not a legalist. You are simply very good at missing the point.
Jason,
I have had the unique opportunity of teaching at a fantastic Christian School (Grace Community School in Sun Valley Ca) and working with Homeschool students (we had a homeschool group that came to the school on Fridays) and also seeing students graduate from our K-9 school and going to one of the worst school districts in the nation The Los Angeles School District and growing in their faith because of the challenge.
The main thing that I saw in all of them that made them 'succesful' is parental involvement. If a homeschool parent was involved, the child grew and excelled. If the parent was just letting the child do as he/she wants and keeping them away from 'bad influences' the student did not do well. (Believe me, this is not a straw man argument, I have seen it more than I care to) The same goes with Christian school. Also, with public school.
The point that Pastor Harris was making is definitely biblical. he was talking about judgmentalism. (See Jerry Bridges 'Respectable Sins' for an excellent chapter on it) He did not say it was unimportant what you choose as a means for educating your child but that we shouldn't look down on someone that chooses differently. That was the whole point.
Do some parents not take this choice seriously? YeS! Do all parents who do not choose to homeschool or Christian school not take their duty seriously? Absolutely not! Many have made assessments on their children's preparedness to be in this environment. Some even volunteer and become class helpers.
I am a Pastor in a small church in Mt. Morris Michigan who has talked to many parents about this subject. The key factor in all of this is PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT. I do plan to homeschool my children for awhile and then if they are ready in our assessment, introduce them to the public school.
Jason, I do not think that you are being legalistic at all. It is right to have an opinion even a very strong one on this. The only way that it can become legalistic is if it is held as 'the only way' or 'the right way' or as a measure of orthodoxy.
You seem like a humble guy and I hope that we all grow through interaction on this one. Thanks for listening :)
jack,
You beat me to the punch :) I agree parental involvement is the key. I say this as an aging youth pastor as well. (I turn 35 today)
Jason,
Sorry for the curt comment above. I apologize. This post just struck a deep chord with me.
Without going into all the details, we were a homeschooling family for many years. But we came to a point where we decided to put our kids in the public schools. This was a prayerful, painful, gutting wrenching decision that has actually been very good for our family.
But when we made this decision we were judged harshly by some homeschooling families very close to us. It was very hurtful.
This seems to be the only point Josh Harris was making and I appreciated it very much. We know first hand how difficult this choice can be.
So again, sorry for the barbed comment.
Scott,
Thanks, apology accepted. I understand what a raw issue this is. I definitely posted my comments with "fear and trembling."
That said, I agree that Mr. Harris was mainly addressing the way Christians relate on this issue. However, the two statements that I objected to were used to support his main point.
Again, I agree that Christians should treat each other with love, regardless of their education choice. However, I respectfully submit that government education is not a "neutral" option. It is not in the same ball park as private or home education.
As I briefly stated, it is an establishment that exists to indoctrinate an anti-Christian religion, namely secular humanism. This is a well documented fact.
Some argue by saying that some govt. schools are better than others. No doubt it's true, but is an educational model that denies Christ His rightful place in all spheres of thought acceptable?
I say this in love, and hopefully in truth. Again, I agree with Mr. Harris' point about being gospel-centered, but I cannot accept his opinion that government schools are appropriate for Christians.
I know that many will disagree with me, but I only ask that they at least check out the resources I mentioned above. It may be eye-opening for some.
Jason,
Thanks for the humble reply and the educational material. It is true that many people have not done the hard work of looking seriously at these issues.
My question for you is, "If people have done all the research that you have and come to a different conclusion than you, are they in sin? Is this a sin issue? If it is , is this an issue that church discipline should be instituted over (Matthew 18)?"
Hayden:
Wow, man. Your last comment has stunned me. That you would even ask the question and entertain this as an option is shocking to me.
I'm really not trying to pick a fight here. But where's the grace? I know your question was directed at Jason and you were not articulating your own view, but that you even brought it up amazes me.
This is the exact thing Josh Harris was warning against.
Wow.
Jason,
It seems to me that you are doing what Josh Harris was warning us against. If you are going to put your personal research up against his (and many, many other Christian leaders) you are welcome to do so. I'm glad that you have firm convictions guiding you and your family in this area.
Like Chris Roberts, (commented above), I had experience in all 3 camps, and gained from each. I also have many family members who teach in the public school system (none of whom are against homeschooling)
I would submit that this is, indeed, a neutral issue. "Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind".
Aaron
There is an inherent tension in this.
Christians know that they can be a powerful witness for justice and righteosuness if they are united.
But they are not.
Imagine the support for everyone to privately school their children if the entire culture did it. That's exactly what culture *is* a communal reinforcement of norms.
Mom PS talks to Mom HS about the trouble Johnny's having with the bad kids at PS. The natural thing for Mom HS to say is "well, if you didn't have him in PS...."
Kitchen wife talks to Theologian Wife about how tough it is for her to get all the meals made well when teaching 7 kids too. Theologian wife could naturally say "You should have used birth control, gone to seminary, got a counseling degree, and made enough money to hire a maid"
So the church divides into classes, because the church refuses to choose and support.
Nobody wants to choose a schooling option without a sense of conviction. You're allowed to homeschool, but not if you think it's a good way to avoid statist influence.
Hayden,
Thanks for the question. That's exactly where we have to go with this discussion.
To answer your question, yes I believe it is as sin to allow our children to sit under anti-Christian teaching. If I am correct in saying that government education is state sponsored indoctrination of secular humanism (an atheistic religion), then logically I must say that sending my children to government school is sin.
Secondly, I believe if the leadership of the church has thoroughly taught on and taken a stand such as the one I am proposing, then parents who choose not to remove their children from this environment must be disciplined. Remember that discipline includes teaching. This is not negative, but positive and loving. It is necessary to instruct untaught consciences.
Again, I say this with fear and trembling. But discipline in a case like this should be done wisely. I would make a huge distinction between the sin of ignorance and the sin of contumacy.
If there were parents who, after hearing the facts about government education, and of their duties to ensure that their children are taught from a Christian world-view, and still after many pleadings refused to remove their children from the govt. school, then yes, Matt. 18 should begin at that point.
I know this will sound harsh to some. However, if you believe, as I do, that government education is positively harmful to children, then church discipline (from teaching to Matt. 18 for the obstinate)is the most loving thing the leadership of a church can do.
I might add that it is the most loving action for both parent and child.
In response to Scott and Aaron; this is definitely not what Mr. Harris warned us about. This discussion has been non-judgmental and we have been dealing with Scriptural principles. I certainly do not feel superior to anyone engaging me.
Brethren, let's reason together and consider each other's thoughts without reactionary attitudes.
Hayden said, "Thanks for the humble reply and the educational material. It is true that many people have not done the hard work of looking seriously at these issues."
I think for me, this is the hardest group to deal with. I've met plenty of people who think of PS as the "default" and have never really thought through any other options. The response to me is so often, "I could NEVER homeschool." (If I had a nickel for every time.....). Sometimes I find these folks to be the most judgmental of my decision to homeschool....and the reasons are often shocking (coming, as they do, from Christians: "But what about the prom? How can you deny your daughter that opportunity?" "How will they ever experience dating?" "What about Friday night football games?" As if those are the most pressing issues for a Christian parent to grapple with!
Pduggie said, "Mom PS talks to Mom HS about the trouble Johnny's having with the bad kids at PS. The natural thing for Mom HS to say is "well, if you didn't have him in PS...."
Although I would never SAY this out loud, sinful person that I am, I often find myself thinking it, which is equally sinful. A good reminder to check myself on this.
Scott,
Unfortunately, this has been brought up before by some who advocate one way of schooling. What I was trying to show (probably not to well judging by your reaction) is that if this is not a sin issue then it must be confronted, but if it is not, then we can hold to strong opinions but must allow for gracious disagreement.
Sorry for the confusion brother. I was not trying to get Jason or even pick a fight. Really! What I was asking Jason to do was ask himself these questions.
I too was trying to show that what Pastor Harris said is correct and I was calling for grace but it didn't come across that way :)
Jason,
Thanks for the response. I disagree with you brother but am working on a sermon for tomorrow night so I should get going. I hope to respond more fully later.
By the way, I was not using 'church discipline' in a negative sense but in the sense of should we 'treat this person as an unbeliever, Gentile, or tax collector' (v 17). This means that we are to in a sense begin evangelism.
So, what you are saying, is that if a person has done the research that you have done and not come to the same conclusion we should treat them as an unbeliever? Wow! There are many Pastors that I greatly respect that would fall into this 'camp', and many of their children are in public schools living for the Lord. (I would say that many of the staff at Grace Community Church where John MacArthur preaches at have kids in public schools. even some of John's grandkids are in public school. Google Johnny MAcArthur and Hart High and look at his amazing testimony)
Well, I've gone too long, it must be the preacher in me brother. Hope you are doing well and I appreciate the 'iron sharpening iron'.
Hayden
PS I would ask you to share thsi with your pastor and ask him what he thinks as well.
Hayden - no problem man.
Jason - you scare me, dude.
Jason,
I am not reacting, nor am I judgemental of you. . . I respect your views and affirm your right to have them.
Pastor Harris was definitely warning against taking an "everyone should act/believe as I do" view on this issue.
So, I agree with everything that you say, right up to the part where education choice is not a neutral issue. Harris wasn't just talking about "feeling" superior, but "acting" superior as well.
Your views are well thought out and accepted by many. But, there are those who look at your research and don't accuse the gov't. schools of teaching that philosophy, (this is case by case).
So, I am simply saying that I agree with him (and not with you, at this point) this this is an area of freedom for Christians.
Aaron
Brethren,
I have appreciated the discussion. I too must be on to other things, and I will leave this issue to wiser men than myself to figure out!
Please permit me just a few concluding thoughts, gents...
Hayden,
On the church discipline issue, we can't treat people like unbelievers until they are excommunicated. They can't be excommunicated until they have shown that they are totally unwilling to repent of known sin. Only then may we regard them as unbelievers.
As to whether educating one's kids in govt. school is a sin is not so much the issue, as unwillingness to regard the counsel of one's elders.
I don't think that the issue with govt. education has anything to do with who sends their kids to them. John MacArthur's decisions don't prove whether a thing is biblical or not. There are many fine people who teach or attend govt. schools. That is not the issue.
The debate we are having centers on one thing: the objective nature of the institution of government school. I am saying that it is a FACT that this institution has an anti-Christian agenda, and promotes atheism. If you would like to demonstrate that I am wrong on this, I assure you, I'm teachable.
By the way, happy birthday, Hayden. It's been fun. And yes, my pastor disagrees with me. But I love him anyway!
Aaron,
Thanks brother. I'm sure I misunderstood you.
I encourage you to read Rushdoony on govt. education. It is truly stunning, and he proves page after jaw-dropping page that there has been a systematic attempt to erase Christianity from young American's minds for a long time.
Grace and peace friends,
Jason
Jason,
thank you for your well reasoned and humble answers here!
others, it sounds like post-modernism is influencing here. all of you need to consider the question that Jason posed..."are govt schools promoting an anti-Christian agenda?" this is the question that needs to be answered. if the answer is yes, then govt schools are sinful. if the answer is no, then they are a valid option. PARENTS are commanded to train up a child in the way he should go...not govt, not the church, not the youth minister, but parents.
"I am saying that it is a FACT that this institution has an anti-Christian agenda"
Consider that schools are run by states, and more directly by local communities. The federal government can give recommendations and guidelines, but on the whole it is hands off. There is federal grant money available to schools, and it usually does have certain strings attached, but even those strings are necessarily limited in scope.
That to say there is no one group that has the power to push an atheistic agenda in schools. States set their own guidelines, and local school districts handle their own business through elected school boards. Public schools are no more corrupt than people allow them to be. In a lot of places they have gotten pretty corrupt, but those places do not serve as across-the-board examples.
Schools convey information about the world. As Christians we fill in the context. Schools can teach kids math, parents teach kids about the One who gives us math, etc. We are seeing liberal policies creep into more and more schools, and those policies are good reasons why parents might remove their kids from public school. But again, places where this takes place do not represent the whole. The quality of schools really is different from place to place, and schools are all run by different groups so that one cannot rightly speak of "this institution" (it is not an institution, it is many institutions in states and communities) having an "anti-Christian agenda" (similar to above, each state/district sets its own goals and agenda, most of which are quite innocuous).
As for a willingness to do church discipline based on where parents choose to send their kids? That is, in my opinion, way out of line.
I love the passion in the homeschooling community. It kind of comes with the territory, I think. But it does bother me sometimes how much the focus can sometimes turn to homeschooling rather than Christ.
I always feel particularly bad for those who would prefer to send their children to private school or homeschool but just don't seem to be able to.
Thanks for the video. How we educate our children is a very important issue, but we need to remember where the divisions are really supposed to be.
Dana
Principled Discovery
according to the federal courts, it is illegal for the govt schools to teach anything but a secular humanist agenda which is anti-Christian.
So to follow the logic of Jason and Jim, any child who attends the anti-Christian governmental indoctrination centers (public schools) would necessarily turn out to be an unbeliever.
Jason and Jim, do you agree with this statement?
And if not, then there must be something wrong with your foundational premise, wouldn't you say?
The real problem is not the "secular humanist agenda" of public schools (which, as far as I can see, is just a paper tiger to justify home schooling). The real problem is indwelling sin. The real answer is not home schooling. The real answer is Jesus.
Frankly, I like separation of Church and State - if there was none, being a democracy, we could easily be moved to Catholicism as the state religion and my kids would learn about the pope and works and transubstantiation and pergatory (all of which are much more damaging than learning about a 4.3 billion year old earth or evolution). Which leads me to my last point - the amount of time spent teaching anti-God content (I suppose that would be evolution, old earth, ....uh, not sure what else) is a very small part of the public school experience. So, I'm not sure where public school teachers are reading this "Secular Humanist Manifesto", but it certainly plays no real part in my community. Funny, we spend so much time discussing the corruption of public schools, but go to many church meetings and you can really see corruption. Be a fly on the wall in many Christian homes, and you'll really see corruption.
There is so much naivete and simplicity present in the comments here regarding government schools - it's hard to comment meaningfully after all.
How many of you who have children in government schools would actually keep them there if you inherited ten million dollars tomorrow? If you could actually disciple them yourselves every day and not think about the economic concerns which drive so many, would you do it? Good grief. The economic concern is more dominant in this decision than many would admit.
It's delusional to think that government schools aren't really that interested in neutralizing your child's trust in the kingdom of God. Reality, according to the government schools, has very little in common with what scripture presents as true and good and eternal. That 'reality' is assumed and promoted in every quarter of the government school experience - and counteracting the toxicity of it is a hardship which can be made easier or avoided in large part if parent/shepherds can absorb the lifestyle hit such seriousness calls for.
Mode of education is a cover for the real issue of discipling those souls entrusted to us. Would any pastor/elder hand over the teaching ministry of his flock to those from another religion/worldview? Even so, your children are yours to disciple, primarily, and so handle such a charge with the gravity this high calling requires - even if it pinches your lifestyle.
All,
What is really being presented is two philosophies of child rearing here.
Both philosophies look to protect children from worldliness.
Both seek to apply biblically what is right.
The tension really exists in how we should help our children live as a Christian in an unbelieving world. One group isolates them from 'bad influences' and the other puts them among 'bad influences'. There can be extremes in both areas! You can neglect the education of your child by putting them in public school and not having anything to do with their education. You can also do that with private school. You can also go to the other extreme and isolate children so much that they do not have an ability to be 'salt and light'.
Let's all admit that when we have an opinion on this topic we can see the other as being 'dead wrong' and set up a straw man argument that we can easily knock down without having to challenge our deeply held opinion. I find that often when this topic comes up, the 'worst of the worst' scenario is trotted out as EXHIBIT A to prove our point. (If you read the comments some of these can been seen, though I do believe that my interaction with Jason does not fit into this category)
This is exactly what Joshua Harris was saying in this video clip. We must not let this divide us as the church.
If only the church were this fired up about the cross! If only the church was this fired up about evangelism! If only the church was this fired up about living the cross-centered life! If only!
Hayden
PS I am not attributing motives to anyone or trying to insinuate a lack of love or devotion to Christ to anyone that has posted. Maye we all take Pastor Harris' plea to heart and pray for each other as we make these hard decisions in our area.
PPS On a completely different topic, I recommend that every teenager and parent of a teen, or grandparent of a teen, read the book "Do Hard Things" by Alex and Brett Harris.
My husband and I are parents of 3 children and we are planning to send them all to public school. We are perfectly capable of sending them to a private school and if we wanted, I could homeschool them. But, we have prayed through this decision and we feel like our local public school is where God would have our children. I could list the reasons, but I'll just be wasting energy, so I won't. But, I will say that I appreciated Josh Harris' words so much here! I will also say that everyone here who strongly disagrees with Josh on this issue needs to quit worrying about what everyone else is doing with their kids and just do what you think is right with your own. Thank you for posting this, Justin.
It's interesting for me to hear people say (through implication) "The schools are out to get your kids". As if there is some government agency in a basement somewhere in Washington, full of atheists and satan worshippers, who are saying "OK, lets see how we can turn these kids further away from God. We already got rid of prayer and got evolution in the curriculum, now what? Let's go over and read the manifesto to see what else we can do". It borders on paranoia. You'd think every teacher, administrator, and school board member were anti-Christian and conspiring together to ruin our kids. If you want something to be paranoid about, be paranoid about the human heart.
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