Between Two Worlds: A Mix of Theology, Philosophy, Politics, and Culture



Tuesday, January 15, 2008

My Question for Tim Challies

18 comments | Permalink
Tim Challies is doing a tour around the evangeloblogosphere and answering questions from various bloggers regarding his new book on discernment.

Here's the list of sites he's visited thus far and still plans to visit:
January 7Evangelical Outpost
January 8Tall Skinny Kiwi
January 9A-Team
January 10Adrian Warnock
January 11Gender Blog
January 14Jollyblogger
January 15Between Two Worlds
January 16TeamPyro
January 17Michael Spencer
January 18Church Matters

Here is my question, followed by Tim's answer:

As the World’s Most Famous Canadian Reformed Blogger, you seek to practice discernment as you critically engage culture and review books. Having now extensively studied the concept of biblical discernment, I wonder what implications you think this has for “discernment blogging”? In part, I’m thinking of “watchdog” blogs and bloggers that have “discernment” as their primary focus. Speaking generally, what are they doing right, and where do they need correction?
One of the questions I was forced to ask as I wrote a book on discernment was this one: “Why are so many discerning people so mean?” If you go looking on the Internet for discernment ministries or discernment blogs, you’ll quickly realize this is exactly the case. There are many people out there who, to borrow a phrase from one of my favorite bloggers, “give discernment a bad name.” Many, and perhaps most, of the people who emphasize discernment do so in a way that seems entirely lacking in grace. You’ll find all kinds of web sites that list all of Christianity’s authors with a list of their supposed flaws and foibles. You’ll find blogs that catalog lists of the offenses of every major Christian author or ministry. And all this is done under the banner of discernment. For the sake of my own sanctification and to ensure that I do not succumb to listening to all manner of gossip and speaking evil of others, I have long since had to cease visiting many of these sites. I suggest that others do the same.

I think there are several reasons that people who emphasize discernment can become so mean. But perhaps the primary one is this: the Bible makes it clear that as Christians we are to focus on the things that are good and lovely and pure and true. When we disobey God in this way and focus constantly on what is evil, it seems clear that we open ourselves to a kind of spiritual oppression. Constantly dealing with matters that are evil will inevitably damage us. As I was studying discernment I continually came across a metaphor which said that people who are being trained to identify counterfeit currency are taught not by being shown stacks of counterfeit money, but by being trained in the defining characteristics of real money. I visited the Bank of Canada (the body in Canada that is responsible for our currency) and found that this is exactly true. When people know what to look for—when they know the marks of genuine money—they rarely have any trouble distinguishing between true and false. And the same is true when it comes to spiritual matters. Rather than constantly looking for examples of a lack of discernment, we should focus on things that will build faith rather than threaten to extinguish it.

So while I appreciate that there are many bloggers and webmasters and others out there who are interested in guarding the church and who value being able to see in the black and white terms so necessary for biblical discernment, I believe we have not properly done our task of discernment until we have spoken the truth in love. Love may be tough, at times, but it must still be present. I think many of these blogs and ministries would do better to model discernment than to continually show only the end result of their own attempts at discernment.

18 Comments:

Blogger Matt said...

I couldn't agree more. Frankly, if I don't think I would enjoy having coffee with the person I really don't desire to listen to them.

1/15/2008 07:11:00 AM  
Blogger Foolish Sage said...

You commended bloggers "who value being able to see in the black and white terms so necessary for biblical discernment..."

I'm curious as to whether you think biblical discernment is always "black and white." It seems to me that the biblical concept of wisdom often leads us to have to make choices in areas that are gray. That may mean doing one thing in one circumstance but its opposite in another. Proverbs has examples of this, as you point out yourself in your book.

1/15/2008 08:20:00 AM  
Blogger candyinsierras said...

In MacArthur's Study Bible, I like how he expounds on this scripture in Romans: 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable O man, whoever you are who judge; for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself, for you who judge practice the same things.

Now I know that scripture has been used to death but I like what MacArthur writes: condemn yourself: If someone has sufficient knowledge to judge others, he condemns himself because it shows that he has the knowledge to evaluate his own condition. Practice the same things: in their condemnation of others they have excused and overlooked their own sins. Self righteousness consists of two deadly errors. 1. minimizing God's moral standards usually by emphasizing externals. 2. Underestimating the depth of one's own sinfulness.

1/15/2008 08:21:00 AM  
Blogger Jerry said...

I just finished reading Tim's chapter on Discernment and Truth this morning, and I appreciated his focus on that which is good (the genuine/counterfeit currency illustration). Now on to Discernment and the Will.

1/15/2008 08:32:00 AM  
Blogger Radish said...

"And all this is done under the banner of discernment. For the sake of my own sanctification and to ensure that I do not succumb to listening to all manner of gossip and speaking evil of others, I have long since had to cease visiting many of these sites. I suggest that others do the same."

I completely agree. I used to check out several different blogs, but now have learned to be a bit more "discerning" as to which are helpful and which are not. I appreciate this blog as it gives a very helpful survey of what is going on other places. Thus, it is easier for me to pick and choose where or if to go. Plus, I finally realized how much time I was using up and not getting my "real" work done as I ought to!

1/15/2008 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger Boaly said...

This was a great answer, (great question too).
Thanks Justin and Tim

1/15/2008 08:36:00 AM  
Blogger donsands said...

".. we should focus on things that will build faith rather than threaten to extinguish it."

"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 20-21

Surely Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, says there are mockers, and false disciples in the church, but we only need to mark them, and leave them unto the Lord, for He will deal with them.

But we are to guard our hearts in the love of Christ, so we don't lose our first love, which many have done.

1/15/2008 08:46:00 AM  
Blogger centuri0n said...

I agree with Challies.

I don' think he means that someone with discernment would be a great coffee break pal.

1/15/2008 08:49:00 AM  
Blogger Terry Rayburn said...

Well said, Tim.

In addition to meanness, we also need to watch for "spin" in some "discernment" blogs. Not content with the truth alone (whether "in love" or not), they often exaggerate to make their point.

Tim, looking forward to meeting you at the Nashville Conference On The Church and Theology.

Blessings,
Terry

1/15/2008 09:10:00 AM  
Blogger Tim Challies said...

I'm curious as to whether you think biblical discernment is always "black and white." It seems to me that the biblical concept of wisdom often leads us to have to make choices in areas that are gray. That may mean doing one thing in one circumstance but its opposite in another. Proverbs has examples of this, as you point out yourself in your book.

There are, indeed, gray areas. But we need to acknowledge that these are gray only to us--God sees them in black and white. The more we come to know and to understand Him, the more the gray will fade and we will also see in black and white.

1/15/2008 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger Josh said...

Tim's blog lists an additional stop on his tour: on January 21 he's scheduled to visit sharperiron.org.

1/15/2008 10:52:00 AM  
Blogger Carla Rolfe said...

As a Christian blogger that takes our need for discernment quite seriously in the post-evangelical age of extremely bad doctrine coupled with a disheartening lack of fear of God among confessing believers, this question (and answer) is especially interesting to me. Add in the fact that I have been accused of being a "watchblogger" myself, (and being mean) and it pretty much speaks directly to me.

I would like to point out just for general info, that "watchdog" blogger moniker was originally used by folks that were taking issue with anyone critiquing anything they held dear, were involved in, or supported - such as the unorthodox and blatant heretical teachings associated with the ECM, Contemplative Prayer, various ecumenical thrusts and the like. The term didn't come about (to the best of my recollection anyway) as a result of the way things were being said, but as a result of the fact that they were being said in the first place. This is how many responded, with insults and rumors and all kinds of other attacks on what they called "watchbloggers".

Tim, you said: "You’ll find all kinds of web sites that list all of Christianity’s authors with a list of their supposed flaws and foibles. You’ll find blogs that catalog lists of the offenses of every major Christian author or ministry. And all this is done under the banner of discernment."

I have no reason to believe you were referring to Phil Johnson's oft maligned (by the very same crowd that enjoyed using the watchbloggers name) "Bookmarks" site, but it's the first site that came to mind as I read your description. I'm sure you had other blogs/sites in mind.

Speaking for myself only of course, that site of Phil's has been a big help to me over the years and actually helped to bring to mind the fact that we do need to be more discerning and when we come across something that is dangerous teaching, we need to let others know, and know why (the same way Phil does there). There is most certainly a place for this and a need for this, among the household of faith.

I would agree that if there are sites/blogs out there that are doing nothing but speaking evil of others (James White is often accused of this as well by those offended with his position against theirs, be it Roman Catholicism, JWs, Islam, etc.) then you should avoid them. At the same time however I think it's very important to consider the content and see if that content lines up with Scripture, rather than dwell on perceived "tone" (as is often the case) and make that the focus.

With that said, I think we could all stand to be a lot more gracious without compromising convictions or Biblical truth. Dr. Albert Mohler made this point quite well just recently when he spoke against the "Loving God and Neighbor Together: A Christian Response to a Common Word Between Us and You" by saying:

"My concern is that when Christians enter the conversation with Muslims we must enter the conversation as Christians," he said. "I think when you address a letter to Muslims and refer to God in their terminology then there is a big problem…when Christians enter a conversation, we have to show up as Christians." (source

No question about it, there are professing Christians calling Mohler unloving and ungracious right this minute because of his position. But is he really? Or is he a man of principle and conviction, unwilling to bend on what he knows to be true, and encouraging other believers to do the same?

It's a strange time we live in, as Christians. No question we're called to both grace and truth, and no matter what we say or how loving we attempt to say it, someone is going to take issue. I'm glad people like Phil, James and Dr. Mohler still say what they do, regardless of the attack they come under for saying it.

Thanks to JT for allowing me such a long comment. Much to be addressed on this front, to be sure.

SDG,
Carla Rolfe

1/15/2008 11:37:00 AM  
Blogger Roger said...

I wholeheartedly agree with you Carla. We must always first and foremost make a stand for truth.

1/15/2008 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger Rob Edwards said...

One of the observations that Dr Henry Blackaby has made is that the gift of discernment is linked to intercession--we discern things so that we may pray for the person or the situation more completely. Maybe if we spent more time praying and less time criticizing one another in the name of 'discernment' the Body of Christ would be much healthier!

1/15/2008 01:37:00 PM  
Blogger Zack said...

Great words/thoughts, Tim.

The Holy Spirit really put the same thing on my heart.

I got to where I had 3 or 4 RSS feeds of those 'watchdog' types of 'discernment' sites, and reading the negativity and criticism -- and sometimes all out vitriol -- every day started to really effect my spirit and therefore my witness to my coworkers.

And He put that same illustration about money handlers into my mind.

One other thing He revealed to me is that discernment seems to make people much more prone to pride. I realize that something is true. I realize that most people appear to be deceived. I can save them from their ignorance.

...And all of the sudden I'm a prideful, arrogant, pharisee.

So thanks for the exhortation to connect discernment to prayer, Rob.

And thanks for the good words Tim.

And thanks for the great blog, Justin.

1/15/2008 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger Jim Pemberton said...

You would think that those gifted in discernment would understand the impact of their manner. Indeed, perhaps they do to some extent. While some are disuaged by it, it's a fact that confidence forcefully expressed equates to competence in the minds of many, especially when they already agree fundamentally. There are a wealth of Christians well gifted in discernment who aren't heeded because they are gracious and not presumptuous in their discourse. These often simply go unnoticed.

1/16/2008 12:38:00 AM  
Blogger Jose said...

Great post! And I say AMEN!

1/16/2008 01:04:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

George D. Watson, a 19th-century evangelist, once wrote: “Discernment by itself is like a razor in the hands of a lunatic. The sharper the instruments, the greater need of brain in the surgeon that handles them; and power to detect sin needs fathomless humility and boundless love to render it useful.” The full text of his essay, "A Critical Spirit," is posted at http://countercultureblog.com/?p=77.

1/16/2008 06:17:00 PM  

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