Who Is the Most Pro-Abortion Candidate Ever?
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posted by JT at Wednesday, January 09, 2008
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53 Comments:
As disturbing as that piece is I still hold out some hope that Obama would be more willing than Clinton to honestly and fairly debate the issue. I base that on this excerpt from The Audacity of Hope:
Two days after I won the Democratic nomination in my U.S. Senate race, I received an email from a doctor at the University of Chicago Medical School.
"Congratulations on your overwhelming and inspiring primary win," the doctor wrote. "I was happy to vote for you, and I will tell you that I am seriously considering voting for you in the general election. I write to express my concerns that may, in the end, prevent me from supporting you."
The doctor described himself as a Christian who understood his commitments to be comprehensive and "totalizing." His faith led him to strongly oppose abortion and gay marriage, but he said his faith also led him to question the idolatry of the free market and the quick resort to militarism that seemed to characterize much of President Bush's foreign policy.
The reason the doctor was considering voting for my opponent was not my position on abortion as such. Rather, he had read an entry that my campaign had posted on my website, suggesting that I would fight "right-wing ideologues who want to take away a woman's right to choose." He went on to write:
"I sense that you have a strong sense of justice and of the precarious position of justice in any polity, and I know that you have championed the plight of the voiceless. I also sense that you are a fair-minded person with a high regard for reason. . . . Whatever your convictions, if you truly believe that those who oppose abortion are all ideologues driven by perverse desires to inflict suffering on women, then you, in my judgment, are not fair-minded. . . . You know that we enter times that are fraught with possibilities for good and for harm, times when we are struggling to make sense of a common polity in the context of plurality, when we are unsure of what grounds we have for making any claims that involve others. . . . I do not ask at this point that you oppose abortion, only that you speak about this issue in fair-minded words."
I checked my website and found the offending words. We had posted them to summarize my pro-choice position during the Democratic primary, at a time when some of my opponents were questioning my commitment to protect Roe v. Wade. Within the bubble of Democratic Party politics, this was standard boilerplate, designed to fire up the base. The notion of engaging the other side on the issue was pointless, the argument went; any ambiguity on the issue implied weakness, and faced with the single-minded, give-no-quarter approach of antiabortion forces, we simply could not afford weakness.
Rereading the doctor's letter, though, I felt a pang of shame. Yes, I thought, there were those in the antiabortion movement for whom I had no sympathy, those who jostled or blocked women who were entering clinics, shoving photographs of mangled fetuses in the women's faces and screaming at the top of their lungs; those who bullied and intimidated and occasionally resorted to violence.
But those antiabortion protesters weren't the ones who occasionally appeared at my campaign rallies. The ones I encountered usually showed up in the smaller, downstate Illinois communities that we visited, their expressions weary but determined as they stood in silent vigil outside whatever building in which the rally was taking place, their handmade signs or banners held before them like shields. They didn't yell or try to disrupt our events, although they still made my staff jumpy.
The first time a group of protesters showed up, my advance team went on red alert; five minutes before my arrival at the meeting hall, they called the car I was in and suggested that I slip in through the rear entrance to avoid a confrontation.
"I don't want to go through the back," I told the staffer driving me. "Tell them we're coming through the front."
We turned into the library parking lot and saw seven or eight protesters gathered along a fence: several older women and what looked to be a family—a man and woman with two young children. I got out of the car, walked up to the group, and introduced myself. The man shook my hand hesitantly and told me his name. He looked to be about my age, in jeans, a plaid shirt, and a St. Louis Cardinals cap. His wife shook my hand as well, but the older women kept their distance. The children, maybe nine or ten years old, stared at me with undisguised curiosity.
"You folks want to come inside?" I asked.
"No, thank you," the man said. He handed me a pamphlet.
"Mr. Obama, I want you to know that I agree with a lot of what you have to say."
"I appreciate that."
"And I know you're a Christian, with a family of your own."
"That's true."
"So how can you support murdering babies?"
I told him I understood his position but had to disagree with it. I explained my belief that few women made the decision to terminate a pregnancy casually; that any pregnant woman felt the full force of the moral issues involved and wrestled with her conscience when making that heart-wrenching decision; that I feared a ban on abortion would force women to seek unsafe abortions, as they had once done in this country and as they continued to do in countries that prosecute abortion doctors and the women who seek their services. I suggested that perhaps we could agree on ways to reduce the number of women who felt the need to have abortions in the first place.
The man listened politely and then pointed to statistics on the pamphlet listing the number of unborn children that, according to him, were sacrificed every year. After a few minutes, I said I had to go inside to greet my supporters and asked again if the group wanted to come in. Again the man declined. As I turned to go, his wife called out to me.
"I will pray for you," she said. "I pray that you have a change of heart."
Neither my mind nor my heart changed that day, nor did they in the days to come. But I did have that family in mind as I wrote back to the doctor and thanked him for his email. The next day, I circulated the email to my staff and had the language on my website changed to state in clear but simple terms my pro-choice position. And that night, before I went to bed, I said a prayer of my own—that I might extend the same presumption of good faith to others that the doctor had extended to me.
Shudder.
Stephen,
You should probably do some research on the legislation Obama opposed as a member of the Illinois legislature which blocked the practice of "live birth abortions" that was going on in this state.
Obama may say he is a Christian, but where is the fruit evidence?
Eye-Opening, thanks JT for posting this.. I am still feeling sickened by what I read, and saddened.
Los
Live birth abortions are horrible (as are in utero abortions), but in a way I applaud Obama for being consistent. If late-term abortions are morally neutral, then why shouldn't post-partum abortions be? The fact that he was willing to be honest, even though he had to know his position seemed absurd, gives him a point, in my view. That adds up to about 15 total, just 344 behind Huck.
I'm not sure why I am, but I continue to be shocked at the level of evilness that protrudes from those who lead this country. I know were not suppossed to judge, but how can someone call themselves a Christian and consistently assist people in murdering children, full term or not?
Thanks for posting Justin.
Obama's support of live birth abortion blows away the standard "life begins at birth" argument that the pro-death supporters have used as one of their mantras.
By that argument placing newly born, breathing, crying babies on a shelf in a storage room to die isn't abortion-it's MURDER. There cannot be any other way to look at it.
So Obama support MURDER of the worst kind- defenseless newborn human beings.
Chilling.
I don't understand how a baby can be aborted, and it remain alive. I thought these doctors killed the baby in the womb?
Though I remember hearing a testimony of a young girl, who said she was aborted. She nows goes about testifying for Christ and for life.
I just don't understand.
Thanks for posting this. I will make sure to get the word out that Obama is the worse. I guess he is also for partial birth, where they turn the baby around, pull its legs out, and suck it's brains out, and then pull it from the womb.
Could anything be more stupid. This world is upside down, and gone mad.
While I do not believe in abortion at all, please do not take Obama to the rack over this one issue.
I am not certain that the president need have a strong position on this case.
Why does the church not do a better job of teaching its people?
The church should be the place that keeps people from having obortions. The world is not supposed to know that obortion is wrong. Obama, while a Christian, believes obortion is ok.
I am alright with that.
There are other issues as important. I am a born again Christian, and I do not think you can claim the corner on the truth on this issue. Jesus Christ is Lord, and we are joint heirs in his kingdom, and yet, this world needs a leader like Obama--I really believe it does.
Huckabbee is not better at all.
Huckabbee is wonderful, but not better.
Neither of these men are JEsus.
Do not expect them to be!
Stephen Ley —
Acta, non verba.
Peter and Anna Milner -
"I do not think you can claim the corner on the truth on this issue."
That is an utterly incorrect statement. The bible wholesale condemns killing babies - in or outside their mother. Especially when outside! Is there a scriptural passage which leaves you in doubt of this? If not, what are you basing your statement off of?
Regarding the world knowing abortion is wrong - it's plain in human consciences that murder is wrong. Especially of infants! Special revelation isn't needed for that any more than it was for condemning the Holocaust or Stalin's massacres.
No Christian should be expecting a messianic president or some perfect Christian president. But someone who doesn't believe infants are humans and so they may be killed for convenience? That's simply atrocious, barbaric and unacceptable in a leader.
The president does need a clear and solid position of this. I take offense to the idea that the butchery of 1/3 of my generation isn't something a president needs a strong opinion about. That is absurd.
The truth on abortion is clear. I would encourage you to check out Abort73.com and get in some good research. It's horrific. Simple.
Friend,
You seem passionate.
That is good.
Tasting Christ is great, and everything else pales. WE know, once we have tasted Him, that life is what God creates. I know that Abortion is wrong, and I think Obama does as well. Obama is a man that is torn between two opinions. His first sense is that Women need to be given the responsibility of making this choice on their own, with their "clergy," as he said. He pumped 100 million dollars into the economy to stop teen pregnancy. What he wants is an open discussion. He is willing to learn. You have to get this kinda guy in the white house, a man who is more open and able to communicate than lots--and you can have a dialogue.
The Bible is a dialogue brother--and we are blessed to have it--but lets not demonize people who differ from us.
I agree with you whole heartedly that abortion is wrong. I will leave it at that. My baby is crying. God bless you and keep you. I would love to continue this conversation. It is important.
Thanks for the reponse - I appreciate your willingness to discuss it.
I am glad to hear that you oppose abortion! I think that Obama does have some good traits that I would like in a president, no doubt. I have no intention of "demonizing" him. I applaud that fact that he is a family man and does care about people and I think he is doing what he thinks he best for the country.
However, his position on abortion is unnacceptable Biblically. Pro-choicers may go on about their justifications in terms of "rights" and "freedoms", and the "what if" scenarios. But there should be no discussion over what is Biblically permissible, and hence what is acceptable in God's eyes.
I think it's good he is all for stopping teen pregnancy. But that is dwarfed tremendously by his horrid view of human life.
I do not think Obama takes the issues lightly or that he thinks others do. However, his decision to support the legality of abortion is a travesty.
I personally have a very hard time justifying voting for a man who will continue to authorize the butcher of over 5 million babies during his presidency for the sake of having a better economy and solving the Iraq mess.
I also have a very hard time with someone doing that and saying they are following the Scriptures.
There is freedom to vote for whomever (expcept Hillary, that's probably pretty bad), and I don't judge you for that. But I seriously challenge you to consider what moral and biblical principles you are willing to sacrifice in this election.
I understand that he is open to understanding and learning, and is open to dialogue. But if he's in office, I highly doubt any change on the issue from him. I wouldn't hold out for that. Whether he's open-minded or not on that matter, babies are still being killed. And their blood will be on his hands if he continues to authorize it.
Peter and Anna Milner said "I am not certain that the president need have a strong position on this case."
If Obama becomes president, the president would have a very strong position on this issue. Up to this point I was somewhat unconcerned about Obama, I didn't like him not dislike him. After reading the article JT linked to I have to say I would NEVER vote for him and would find it appalling that anyone who claims to be a Christian can vote for him much less think the way he does.
Peter and Anna Milner said "The world is not supposed to know that obortion is wrong. Obama, while a Christian, believes abortion is ok."
I would love to hear how someone who claims to be a Christian can support abortion. I say "claims to be a Christian" knowing that I cannot read his heart, but this kind of attitude isn't what I would call 'good fruit'. And I would love to hear an explanation on what is meant by "I do not think you can claim the corner on the truth on this issue." What in Scripture is unclear about the fact that murder is wrong and abortion is murder??
--I see someone has beat me to the punch, and you have already answered them by saying of Obama: "His first sense is that Women need to be given the responsibility of making this choice on their own, with their "clergy," as he said.
So you are saying that we should vote someone who thinks the best course of action is to 'give women the responsibility to make the choice' to murder their children??
I'm not trying to be uncharitable, but that's not much of an answer.
There is rarely a person in the race who is going to believe in all your positions.
You have to choose which ones are important.
Obama does not have the blood on His hands. The person who does the abortion has the blood on their hands.
I think abortion is horrible.
I could not agree more.
It grieves God daily.
Thanks for your challange.
I will be voting for Obama, and I am really excited about it to be honest.
I served as a chaplain on a hospital ward, and I was with a woman that had a still born baby.
It was horrible.
I know from experience the pain and agony of losing, or taking life.
This is a hard issue.
Friends, I'm just as alarmed by the number of abortions as you are, but I don't think one can call into question Senator Obama's relationship with God based on his opinion on one issue.
Those who are pro-choice are not pro-choice because they hate babies or delight in their death, they are pro-choice because they care about the woman. Is that care taken too far? I believe it is. But an excessive concern for the well-being of a person is hardly grounds for questioning that person's relationship with Christ.
AMEN
brother
And read Richard Hayes'
"The Moral ??? of the New Testament."
Incredible.
It is not Tim Keller, or,
G. K. Chesterton, but it is good.
Peter & Jacob -
Again, thank you for your repsectful and honest dialogue!
I do not know whether this comparison is too severe, but I will use it anyway since the issue is severe. Those who authorize and protect the killing of human lives are guilty of the blood that is shed. Maybe not in the same degree as the one who pulls the trigger or uses the scalpel. But the guilt is nonetheless there. A mob boss can't say he's innocent of the people he ordered killed. Hitler can't say he's innocent of those he ordered killed. I can't see any reason why that same logic can't be applied to this scenario with a leader, who has the power to stop abortion, protects the legality of it and supports it in principle. If there is a fallacy, please do show me.
My qualm isn't with Obama per se, but his positions. Some sacrifices are required in selecting just about any candidate. I don't think Obama hates babies or is sadistic, etc. Again, I beleive he thinks this is most caring. But is is gravely wrong.
And Jacob, one can call into question someone's relationship to God based on one issues (The Trinity, justification, Christology, etc.). But that isn't my point here. My point is that Obama supports something clearly opposed by Scripture, not something that is a gray area. That is a very serious concern.
Can someone be pro-choice and Christian? I suppose. However, those who are will inevitably find themselves far outside of obedience God's clear commands in this area and I cannot say that is a safe place to be.
Thanks for your words Andrew
Good.
Here is something that pertains to this, that I think is good to think about.
We are a great nation.
But the church is even greater.
We are one body.
And it is messy bro, I am afraid, very messy.
Being a pastor, I can vouch for that.
Obama's support of abortion rights led numerous evangelicals to lash out when it was announced he would be speaking, along with Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., at a Friday session entitled "We Must Work Together."
Rob Schenck, president of the National Clergy Council, called Obama's views "the antithesis of biblical ethics and morality, not to mention supreme American values."
Taking heat for inviting Obama was Saddleback Pastor Rick Warren, author of the popular "The Purpose-Driven Life."
Warren – and Brownback – eagerly explained their support of Obama at the event. Warren said differences on some issues shouldn't prevent them from working together on the problem of AIDS.
"I've got two friends here – a Republican and a Democrat," Warren said. "Why? You've got to have two wings to fly. … It's time for the church to be known for what it's for, not what it's against."
He went on to say Obama and Brownback were two members of Congress he most respected. "You may not always agree with what they say, but they always speak with integrity – and more than that, civility," Warren said.
Warren, Brownback and Obama all spoke of AIDS as a pandemic that is one of the world's most daunting problems, particularly in Africa, where there are an estimated 12 million AIDS orphans.
Peter –
I am glad to hear Obama opposes AIDs and I think Christians should to more on the issue. But it doesn’t cover up his abortion issue.
Obama won’t solve the AIDs problem in Africa. I doubt he’d even to much to stem it, honestly. Throwing money and programs at the people isn’t the answer. The next president won't solve the AIDs problem.
But the next president has a real chance of ending legal abortion in this country.
So he can try and save Africa from AIDs. Maybe his efforts will even save a few thousand lives there. And he should try for that. But his efforts here will secure the deaths of over 5 million of his own countrymen. That’s not a trade off. I understand Rick Warren’s reasoning and I think it’s good to listen to what candidates have to say and not demonize them. There should be good discussion. But when all that nicety and politeness settles, this fact remains: in 2008 over 1 million babies, from my generation – my fellow citizens, will be killed. Not just die – killed. A candidate who is ok with that isn’t compassionate enough for me.
I have a hard time seeing the consistency between believing that human life begins at conception and support for someone who defends the “right” to take that life for the mother’s convenience. While I know most Christians are apathetic about the issue (I struggle with it!), the matter to me is very similar to the Holocaust. Had I been alive at the time and had known what was going on at Auschwitz, I could only hope I wouldn’t have been “ok” with it. I hope I would have been like Dietrich – whatever else Hitler was for and did for Germany that may have been good politically and economically and even morally in some respect be damned. He cannot be supported. 43 million babies killed. That dwarfs the Holocaust.
Could Barack help the economy better than pro-lifers? Could he end the war sooner than them? Could he fix health care and social security? Could he solve the immigration issue better? Maybe. All important issues to be sure. I don’t want to pretend they aren’t and I’m not saying the pro-life candidates have the best positions. But for God’s sake they don’t protect the murdering of babies!
This is an issue about which Christians can honestly disagree. But let’s be very clear of what’s at stake. I’m not saying you’re not. But I don’t care about a candidates promise to solve the unemployment or Iraq problem if he’s going to protect the butchery of millions more children. I really start to wonder around election time how opposed to abortion many Christians really are.
A few brief thoughts:
- The Christian stance against abortion, euthanasia and suicide are only as coherent as they are embodied in the concrete practices of specific congregations. Given that we suck at caring for the poor, sharing resources, and living nonviolently, perhaps this is where we should start.
- There is plenty of reason to think that a strongly pro-life president might not be able to do anything about abortion. As has been argued by Christians far more conservative than I, the most an unlikely undoing of Roe v. Wade would accomplish is to put abortion to the state level--in which case red states would outlaw it and blue states would allow it (and pregnant women from red states would get abortions in blue states). So perhaps the question of the legislation of abortion is not the most pressing issue here.
- If we want our presidents to be 'Christians', then why don't we talk about war? The one in Iraq for example. How about Jesus' commandment to live nonviolently? It applies to all Christians everywhere at all times, by the way. Let's not even mention that BS about it not applying to Christians in government--if your allegiance to your country causes you to disobey Christ, the problem is not with Christ.
- The fact of the matter is that Christians in the U.S. care way too much about the U.S. and way too little about being a foretaste of the Kingdom. Besides, imagine a U.S. of A. where everything else is the same, but abortion is illegal. Have you thought of the consequences? Unless you plan to fix everything, 'fixing' abortion will probably only make things worse. So again, let's focus first on being the church, and let that be our witness to society.
My two cents.
-Daniel-
This post has been removed by the author.
Daniel –
Thanks for your contribution. I admire your consistently civil, charitable and rational approach to commenting on this blog, even when you usually tend to be on the disagreeing side. It’s a good example to me and others!
Some responses to your thoughts:
- I’m on your side with saying that I (definitely) and probably the church at large could do better with caring for the poor. And there is always room to improve in sharing our money and giving to those in need. But, the need to improve in a certain area doesn’t mean we should abandon another area. This is even more poignant when you are dealing with the reality of povery vs. a massacre of unborn children. If the circumstances surrounding an event in any way merit the degree of reaction to it, Christians should be intensley opposed to abortion and should be much more active about it. Does that address your first point? Not sure if I understood the first sentence clearly.
- When I stated that a pro-life president could potentially stop abortion I meant following: that he could end the legality of it (potentially). Even if he failed to end it on a federal level, putting it in the state courts would help. The numbers would still drop even if the blue states protected it. That’s a start. Granted many women would go to a blue state. But if that blue state is 400 miles away and/or if she’s a teen and doing it without her parents’ consent, it’s a lot less likely to happen. And you’re right - legislation isn’t the most important issue – people are going to hell and murder is being committed and sin is rampant in and out of the church. But, outlawing abortion would nevertheless be a tremendous victory for justice – something the church is to be about for the Kingdom and its King are about it. And therefore it should be vigorously pursued.
- I do believe in “Just War” and I’m not going to open that can of worms in this forum. I do believe the government, whether headed by a Christian or not, is to wield the sword appropriately. Christian standards, as laid out in Scripture, should apply to Christians in every position in the country. And if Barack is a Christian, then he has some re-aligning to do on his abortion stance.
- I agree that many, many Christians in the US are too worldly (I often find myself in that camp) and forget about heaven and Christ’s kindgom. My pastor has been pounding that into our heads lately. And this may be semantic, but I don’t see it as an issue of “fixing” abortion. It’s an issue of stopping a massacre of human lives. It’s about fighting a tremendous case of injustice. Was there a million other issues to deal with in and outside the church aside from slavery in the 19th century? You better believe it. But the church did what was right in putting her energies against it. We need that again. Social justice matters. And there is no greater offense to that currently than abortion.
Jay (and others), I read the piece and as another person said...it's chilling. It's tragic that Obama doesn't see that ending abortion is a transcendent human rights issue, just as much as tackling AIDS in Africa or ending the genocide in Sudan. I'd love to have the opportunity to make that argument to him personally. Hillary too. In the meantime, I'm going to be praying that this immensely talented candidate has a change of heart.
Andrew - I think it's unhelpful to compare what's going on right now with abortion to the holocaust. Given a pre-life position, it might be reasonable to make the comparison, but it's not especially helpful. All that it accomplishes is that it makes the point that abortion is the ending of a human life and it's being done on a large scale today. But there are other ways to make that point without running the risk of offending many people and causing the discussion to descend into name-calling and emotional reactions. I'm not opposed to making an offensive statement if it's absolutely necessary, but you can make your point without using such an emotionally-loaded image as the holocaust.
And yes, we have an obligation to protect life, which includes the unborn, however I sometimes wonder if it's possible that a pro-choice candidate who intends to really do something about poverty and racism might be more able to curb the number of abortions than a pro-life candidate who does nothing to fight poverty or racism.
Basically, I think all these issues- abortion, poverty, racism, economics, etc. are all tied together. And if you wish to do something about one, you have to have a cogent plan for all of them. If you just make abortion illegal, but do nothing to fight against the systemic injustice in our country, then you won't accomplish very much. I think it's better to create a system where abortion is generally seen as unnecessary. (Something to think about: What if all the money Christians put into simply protesting abortion were instead used to pay for adoptions of babies who would otherwise be aborted?)
Also, I agree that if the issue is something like the divinity of Christ or the resurrection, than one can make judgments about one's relationship with God. However, I'm very uncomfortable making such dogmatic statements about anything outside the Apostle's Creed. It's one thing to question someone's salvation because they deny the deity of Christ. It's quite another to do it because they are pro-choice.
Jake –
Thanks for your thoughtful, careful and wise response. I honestly appreciate your critique.
I have no intention of descending to name calling and emotionalism. My use of the Holocaust comparison is to perhaps awaken an appropriate emotional response to what is often handled a bit to callously. I can refer to Stalin’s work or the work of a nuclear bomb in how they destroyed life, but the Holocaust is particularly similar. That said, I am open to your suggestions on how else the poignancy of the matter and the depravity of it can be conveyed with rationality and appropriate outrage.
You do make a really good point on the balance between a pro-life stance and other social causes like poverty, racism, economic woes for certain classes and races, etc. While outlawing abortion would reduce the number of abortions, it stops only the bloodshed caused by a much larger issue. I remember Piper talking about how people in his congregation found better ways to fight abortion than by ending up in jail for illegally protesting. I agree – there should be a strong and multi-faceted front on social justice and abortion. I don’t think Obama or the democratic candidates have the right approach to doing that (but that’s my opinion). I applaud your creative approach to stopping abortions through better and easier adoption funding. And while that would make adoption easier and more affordable, I don’t think it would do much (at least over the course of several years) to stem the tidal wave of abortions.
Still though, I like your approach and whole-heartedly agree that we need more than just anti-abortion legislation. There needs to be an end to rampant teenage pregnancy and the racism issues. Christians need to be about those as well.
And to clarify, I don’t mean to question someone’s salvation on the issue of abortion. My apologies if I came across that way. I simply meant to say that it is possible to call it into question salvation over one issue. The question isn’t whether the person supports abortion – it’s their view on Scripture that’s important.
Thanks for your helpful contribution – seriously!
Stephen
Well said
We must pray for Obama.
I hope he changes.
That is what we all want when we worship the Lord.
We want Him to change us.
He is so gifted. I love Huckabee as well. I can ocmpletely see why you would vote for him. He is awesome. I cant do it though.
Peter
Andrew...good stuff man. Im with you. Honestly, I think people like Jake and Peter and Anna Milner are being a little too opened minded here or something. Maybe they havent thought this through.
Jake, who cares if you offend people when 40 million babies have been legally killed since Roe v Wade. Maybe the problem is that people have not been offended enough by it.
I think if you took 3,500 babies that willed by killed today because of abortions out into a field and video taped people killing them...it might change peoples minds.
Secondly, 40 million is way more than the Holocaust so I have no problem with calling the abortions in this country a holocaust or the greatest act of terrorism we've suffered or whatever if it gets the point across.
also, the war. Around 4,000 soldiers dead. Today, 3,500 babies will die. The war is serious no doubt, but not as serious as aborion.
Also, I dont think you can sum up scripture by saying Jesus was anit violent. Read Revelation 19.
The church must have a role in stopping abortion. Also, Christians in order to be salt and light, must try to get involved in our government as well. Our government is set up so that we can do that.
Another thing, If you really, and I mean REALLY, beleive that abortion is murder, how silly is it to say that it would be ok for a President to support such. How stupid would it be for me to go out and tell every body that Im ok with murdering 1.3 million of my countrymen every year.
Also, you cant look at the problems that doing the right thing would create and then be scared into not doing the right thing. The right thing is to stop abortion. We'll worry about the other problems when they arive.
What can a President do? Well, "attitude reflects leadership" He may be able to do some legal things but maybe just as important is that he will exert influence. If you get a guy or woman in the presidency who doesnt care....America will surely not care right along with him...or her.
As far as Christians go, we must oppose evil. And regardless of what other issues are important. The greatest evil going on right now is abortion. 1.3 million children will die this year. This is abominable. A the world, flesh, and the devil are subtlely decieving people every year that it is not such a big thing. And Christians are being fooled into thinking that there are more important issues that should take top priority.
My personal solution is to vote for Mike Huckabee, who is good on all the Major issues and has the strongest stance of major candidates on abortion.
Bull -
Reminds me of the Abort73 shirt:
"Would it bother us more if they used guns?"
Yes
We must oppose evil.
But it is often hard to see what is evil.
Stay with me here.
Remember the wheat, and the darnel, or weeds.
What did Jesus say?
We must be careful!
You may say, "Wait a minute...this is killing babies."
I agree.
Killing a baby in a field is terrible.
But it is not that simple my brother.
If it were not the case, then we would not be on earth, waiting the return of our lord.
Trust not in your own judgments, but in those of the Lord.
I would never vote for abortion.
I would rather Obama not as well.
But Obama is not a killer.
He wants women to have the choice.
I used to agree with him.
I do not any more.
But I have to have compassion on a man that has this position.
I have compassion on that.
I used to be a baptist.
Now I am an Anglican.
I used to think it was crazy to baptize babies.
Now I think it is ok.
I know it is a wild analogy--but we have to allow for room in the church. Room.
this is not OUR church.
This is the body of Christ.
I think you will find lots of Catholics voting for Obama--because they sense within him the love which their Lord has called them to love.
It may seem oxymoronic to then allow abortion( and it is) but we have to allow for room that we are wrong as well.
I do not think we are--but we cannot have a certain test for what it means to lead a country.
Nor, a pulpit.
Theologically, we know that Christ satisfied the justice of God, and thus is perfectly holy, while also kind to accept those people of sin, like us.
It is not black and white!
Jake--
I appreciate your thoughtful and thorough response.
Obama is one who will fight a more systemic end to abortion, in a more ground up fashion than will other candidates who simply want to scrape the issue under the carpet and make abortion illegal.
It is not that simple, as you know.
The Kingdom of God is on the move, and that is wonderful. Keep yourself grounded in that reality, and that will help. Thanks for your response.
Praise God.
Basically, I think all these issues- abortion, poverty, racism, economics, etc. are all tied together. And if you wish to do something about one, you have to have a cogent plan for all of them. If you just make abortion illegal, but do nothing to fight against the systemic injustice in our country, then you won't accomplish very much. I think it's better to create a system where abortion is generally seen as unnecessary. (Something to think about: What if all the money Christians put into simply protesting abortion were instead used to pay for adoptions of babies who would otherwise be aborted?)
This is a wise word.
If the Christians of the world, like me, gave their money away, and truly followed the words of Christ, then the systemic need for abortion would not be there.
If our culture was one that had a communal sense of life, that shared responsiblity--then this outrage of abortion would not exist. The church is the place where we must start to place a mirror up to the world. Unfortunately, the post reformation-enlightenment christianity that demands Words, rather than Communities--is the same one that points its fingers at candidates that are not "christian enough."
In other words, the very people that propel a type of individualized, privitized, Cristianity, are the very people that are so hot about abortion. Why?
They have forgotten that they are part of their history.
They have forgotten their story.
You cannot seperate abortion from economics--and many christians want to make blanket statements that are more like abstract theological propositions.
It is time to return to our Jewish roots, and remember that Jesus lived in community, that Jesus was a healer, a teacher, and that His ways are so foreign to our post christian 21st century american ideals, that it is not even funny. Sorry for the rant. As Barth says, "God makes the impossible, possible."
"Behold I make all things new."
This is a new time, and something good is happening. Pleaes continue the conversation.
To those who say making abortion illegal would not fix the problem:
No, it wouldn't. In just the same way, making murder illegal doesn't mean that no murders take place. We seek to attack other problems in society to try and bring down the crime rate: poverty, drugs, etc. However, we do outlaw murder because it does prevent many murders. True, making abortion illegal wouldn't end the sytemic causes of abortion (and let's be frank, the #1 systemic cause is sin, which only the gospel of Christ can solve), but it would be a very good thing.
Peter and Anna Milner....
wow...I dont know where to start.
First of all, this is not an issue of whether I or any body else has compassion for Obama or anybody else.
I dont hate the guy. lets make that clear.
But what I want to say is that we CANNOT let our tolerance and compassion for people interfere with clearly dividing out what is right and wrong.
Some of the WORST THINGS on this planet have been done with "Good intentions"
I am not trying to analyze ANYTHING about the person of Barak Obama or any democrat or any republican who supports abortion.
What I am saying is that ABORTION is wrong. These people that support it are taking a HUGE HUGE HUGE risk. They say that you cant prove that its a human life, you cant PROVE that its a person, and therefore....ITS OK TO TAKE THE LIFE!
This is the worst logic ever!
And sure, I have compassion on these people.
But let me ask you this...If you have a child....and you have compassion for this child. And one day this young child gets out in the road and a car is coming. what are you gonna do? Are you gonna say, "well, I have compassion for this child, therefore Im gonna let him make his own descision...in fact...I may even support him in his descision to play in the road. Why? because I have compassion for him. I "tolerate" his descision.
MY point is this, it is in NO way compassion to tolerate something that is evil. You can feel compassion for these poor souls that want to play in the road and want to put babies in the road to get run over by cars because they dont really think they're babies...
but as a REALLY compassionate person, you're attitude must be to stop the evil and get the people out of the road.
(Even if it means opposing those you have compassion for)
This is logic and reason.
If I have a family member doing drugs, I dont let them continue in the drug use because I "love them".
...absurd....
As Christian (which is what we claim we are)...we must be consistent. And we must seek the greater love, which is sometimes to oppose those we have compassion on ...because they are wrong and are participating in evil.
I agree with what you are saying about the church being involved. But sir...or maam...while you are waiting around for this utopia or Christian involvement....millions are dying.
The point is that at any point you get a chance to fight injustice, you do so.
And sometimes, changing the government is involved in being salt and light.
Slavery was not ended because the Christians finally got their act together and made slavery ..."unnecessary"
the government made a ruling.
The same thing with civil right. Some Christians played roles, but the government made descisions to stop injustice.
I firmly agree that the Church has a say so and must do things outside the government. I agree that Government is not always the answer. But on this one, the need of the hour is for abortion to become illegal ...AND...for Christians to begin to do helpful things to battle abortion. We need both.
Good point D.J.
How would we tackle this problem if it were murder?
If the government legalized murder, what would be our course of action?
do we say...
"..well, what we need to do as Christians that can vote in our democratic republic...is first of all, not to vote for a president that is agianst murder and thinks it should be illegal and wants to pass an ammendment that is anti-murder. No, what we need to do is vote for a candidate that is for legalized murder and then we need to get the Christians together to make murder "uneccessary"....
...absurd....
we would do both. As Christians, vote for the candidate that wants to fix the mistake the government made. And as Christians, take part in extra-governmental ways as well.
Peter –
It can be hard at times to discern what is evil.
But abortion is not one of those gray areas.
Are you suggesting that the Scroptures do not condemn taking innocent (in human justice terms) human life or that is is possible tha baortion may be biblically permissible?
I fail to understand why killing a baby in the womb is morally different or more palatable than killing them elsewhere. Are you saying it is?
When I condemn murdering an innocent baby I am not trusting in my own judgment anymore than you are when you condemn adultery. Discernment isn’t the question here!
Obama is wrong, as you know, to sa ythat women have the right to have their children killed. How does that decision merit compassion from you? If this were healthcare, glossolalia or Coke vs Pepsi, I agree that open-mindedness is good. But this is murder we are talking about! What about compassion for the child being killed?
What I understand that the baptism analogy only goes so far, it has no legitimate comparison at all here. None.
The abortion issue cannot be entirely solved by legislation – we all agree. But enough of this nonsense about how banning abortion would accomplish very little. Millions of lives saved – little? Little? I say it’s an incredibly good start toward justice.
Creating a system where abortion is unnecessary? That, I don’t think, is the role of government. It is the role of the church to spread the kingdom and this would the clostest thing to that goal. But before that Christiain effect takes place, we have the chance to save millions through anti-abortion legislation.
A lot of this “there are other big-picture issues to take care of first” misses the real point. Wilberforce pushed for one specific thing – the abolition of the slave trade – vehemently. His other goal was the “reformation of manners”. Peter and Daniel and the others seem to be pushing for the Reformation of Manners only. Would that everntually, over a long period, solve the abortion issue? Most of it – yes, and let’s pursue that change in society whole-heartedly! But it would be madness and stupidity to ignore the tremendous good and just cause of the anti-abortion movement.
Many of Wilberforce’s foes encouraged him to see the big picture or tackle this or that first. I applaud William for listening to both the societal change needed and the cries of those victims who had no voice. I hope we do the same.
And also Peter and Anna Milner...
Catholics sense the love in Obama....what? ok, what about the love in Huckabee?
You make some points that have missing logical links.
If you really belive as you said that women should not have a choice and that abortion is killing babies, then you would oppose it.
...OVER...your so called compassion for a candidate.(not that you would not have compassion for him, but you would not vote for him)
I think you are trying to be too open minded here and are trying to rationalize your support for someone for some reason that I know not.
...you said something about 'Trust not in your own judgments"
....what about yours? how do you know that your's is right?
What authority do you have?
The authority that we go to is Scripture and reason. And if the bible says it is wrong to murder, then we oppose murder. plain and simple.
There are some things that are clear sir...or maam... this is one of them. To have any other stance is INCONSISTENT with your claims to be a Follower of Christ and of His Scriptures.
Im not saying anyone is perfect, but what I am saying is that when all heads are cleared and light has shown what is TRUE....Christians (to be consistent) cannot be pro-choice or vote for a candidate that supports abortion.
Bull--
I think abortion is wrong.
It does not warrant keeping Obama out of the white house though.
It is time to move away from one lines into a more humanistic--Christ like sharing between people.
What makes us human is our ability to communicate.
We need that happening at the highest level of govt.
I feel hopeful that even if Obama does not win, that possibly Huckabee could win. He is also a thoughtful communicator.
While Bush was a Christian, I did not vote for him just because he was a Christian.
Andrew
Bravo on the Wilberforce comment.
I love him.
I was practically made to love him because I went to a Methodist seminary.
You make good points.
I am not convinced.
And that is ok.
I hate abortion.
You do to.
Jesus does.
That is for sure.
But remember that all ten commandments from the Lord are rolled into all the other commandments.
Perhaps the greatest evil is that which is unseen!
Thou shalt not covet!
I am so glad slavery is over.
Racism is alive and well.
I fight it daily, within myself.
But God is good, and I know many a God fearing man--who are incredibly in love with Jesus, that will be voting for Obama.
And I think that is good news.
God bless you brother for your courage and your position.
I wish you all the best.
Peter Milner
And I am up for talking more any time.
We obviously like thinking through hard issues in our walk with Christ.
Bull
I am a Christian.
I am voting for Obama.
Please do not question whether I know my Lord, based upon my decision of who should govern this land.
I am offended.
Authority, as you said, is based in Scripture.
I cannot agree more.
Authority is key.
Scripture is not a book of virtues.
Scripture is a story of a God that is wildly in love with his fallen creatures.
He comes after us, even if we do make mistake, or have bad positions in politics.
I am a bit nervous that you think that your opinions could change God's love for you.
God's love for you has nothing to do with you, but Him.
You know that though.
It is hard to vote for a guy who is pro choice--but there are other issues at stake here.
Many more issues.
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Peter -
Perhaps more Wilberforce and some questions will help then. Essentially my debate with you is this - what is more important to you in this election than saving the lives of over 5 million innocents? Economy? Iraq? Job market? Uniting of parties? Immigration reform?
Listen to Wilberforce: "Before this great cause all others dwindle in my eyes, and I must say that the certainty that I am right here, adds greatly to the complacency with which I exert myself in asserting it."
What prevents you from agreeing?
Didn't Wilberforce have to deal with other issues? "For example, if Britain really outlawed slavery, the West Indian colonial assemblies threatened to declare independence from Britain and to federate with the United States. These kinds of financial and political arguments held Parliament captive for decades".
But he persisted: "I confess to you, so enormous, so dreadful, so irremediable did its wickedness appear that my own mind was completely made up for Abolition. . . . Let the consequences be what they would, I from this time determined that I would never rest until I had effected its abolition."
"If it please God to honor me so far, may I be the instrument of stopping such a course of wickedness and cruelty as never before disgraced a Christian country."
What are the issues that prevent you from standing against such an evil as abortion, such that you would support a man who has the power to outlaw it but chooses to protect it?
What other social evil to you is so abhorrent that Obama or any PC candidate thinks they can fix that it has priority over this abomination?
You said it wasn't easy voting for someone who supports the killing of the unborn - what factors helped to overcome your conscience on the matter?
Understand me - I hate abortion. Thinking of it too long makes me cry bitterly. I have no hostility toward you whatsoever and I understand that you believe Obama will bring about greater change for the country.
Economics and foreign policy are vague, but this is clear. It does not make sense to me that one can think God is pleased when we vote to help the economy a bit at the cost of millions of lives.
So what if the PL candidates don't have the best economic theory in your view? Say with Wilberforce, "Let the consequences be what they would" - this abomination must cease.
That's my charge to you. Think over the questions.
Peter and Anna Milner...
...I am offended that you did not read my comments clearly and misinterpreted what I said.
"Bull
I am a Christian.
I am voting for Obama.
Please do not question whether I know my Lord, based upon my decision of who should govern this land. (...I NEVER said this. look at it again. i said that you are inconsistent. I believe there are many Christians who are voting for Obama, but those people are inconsistent in their reasoning for doing so if they claim to be followers of Christ.)
I am offended.
Authority, as you said, is based in Scripture.
I cannot agree more.
Authority is key.
Scripture is not a book of virtues.
Scripture is a story of a God that is wildly in love with his fallen creatures.
He comes after us, even if we do make mistake, or have bad positions in politics.
I am a bit nervous that you think that your opinions could change God's love for you. (NEVER said this at all, though I would say that our behavior DOES matter to God. Otherwise why would he spend so much time trying to conform us to the image of His son.)
God's love for you has nothing to do with you, but Him.
You know that though.
It is hard to vote for a guy who is pro choice--but there are other issues at stake here.
Many more issues.
(But NONE THAT SHOULD TAKE THE PLACE OF TOP PRIORITY RIGHT NOW OVER 1.3 MILLION LIVES A YEAR.)
I would like to hear the reasoning behind any other.
I do not believe there is a perfect Candidate because Jesus is not running. But honestly, if you're gonna tell me that a CONSISTENT Christian can vote for a guy that thinks abortion is ok and that same sex marriage is ok, then you've got to give me something better than what you're giving me as to the reasoning for such a vote.
I think if you're honest, you have probably been sweet talked by a guy without lookin at his issues. Maybe you want a black president more than any thing. (Im ok with a black president by the way)
Maybe you grew up Democrat or have been Democrat for a long time and feel that you have to vote Democrat. Maybe you dont like republicans. I DONT KNOW. IT MAY BE NONE OF THESE.
But Im telling you. There is NO way that you can take what the Bible teaches us and combine SOUND reason with that and then tell me that you can hold a political position that allows you to overlook abortion and vote for a candidate based on another issue that you think is MORE IMPORTANT right now. THIS IS INCONSISTENCY.
If you are actually claiming the authority of Scripture in your life and not just giving it lip service, then you will forfeit whatever issue you FEEL is more important and will absolutely have to demote it on the chain of priority...not giving it up maybe...but you will have to say that stopping abortion is tops.
....if you are consistent.
And as Martin Luther said, unless you can convince be by Scripture and sound reason....here I stand I can do no otherwise.
And if you cant, I would encourage you not to try and convince others to your position for the sake of the Kingdom....unless you can support it.
God Bless
Ah the disproportion of comments to post length...
The problem here is with the philosophical presuppositions undergirding the pro-life stance. You can frame it in terms of 'taking innocent life', but since most of you are meat-eaters, you must add the caveat, 'human' life. Which is to say, you are exceptionalists who believe only human beings have an 'unalienable right to life'. All well and good as a philosophical position, but this is post-biblical philosophizing here. The Bible has no 'stance' on abortion.
For philosophical reasons, I'm inclined to think that abortion is not murder. To abort is to kill, certainly, but non-Christians may have good justifications for killing, even human beings. In fact, many Christians believe that killing innocent human beings isn't always murder (e.g. shooting a friend who is being dragged into a cave by aliens to prevent his or her further suffering--outlandish scenario, I know, but you get the point).
Anyway, for someone with my (post-biblical) philosophical position, a heavy emphasis on making abortion illegal brings to mind many questions. If the legislation is successful, many more poor children will be born. Many more unhappy dysfunctional families will be created. Crime will increase drastically.
Abortion functions like a lie. The husband who is addicted to porn but lies about it doesn't have to face up to his bigger problem. The second he stops lying, everything explodes, because he has issues. The USA is that husband. The second we make abortion impossible is the second all our other problems (which abortion hides) come out bright as day.
So the pro-life politician must conjure up policies for all of these issues. Pretty soon, you're running society. My thought is, why let so-called 'democracy' tempt me into figuring out how to run the country?
We belong to a Christian Nation: the Church. Let's run that one right. Let's be a city on a hill. Perhaps then, the U.S. will learn from us.
Peace.
-Daniel-
Dear Daniel
Bring the noise.
Thanks so much brother.
Praise the Lord.
I agree with 90% of what you said.
The analogy of pornography is perfect. In Christ all things are made new, radiant, and alive.
May we all come to know Christ in this season.
Peter
Not sure I followed your first paragraph entirely.
I suppose pro-lifers are “exceptionalists” in that I differentiate between the life of a human being (made in God’s image) and a non-human. So the belief that human life is sacred (“holy” - God-given and given in a manner exclusive to all other creation) is a mere philosophical position? I’m sure you would agree that it’s quite biblical. So, let’s start again – I have a biblical belief that human life is sacred. From there, I am trying to determine what Scripture says about taking human life.
Now, regarding whether the bible has a stance on abortion – that’s like saying the Bible doesn’t have a stance on “hanging” someone. It does, but maybe not by our terminology. Both deal with taking human life, and the Bible certainly addresses that. Drop the semantics.
If human life begins at conception, then abortion takes that life. We can call that “killing” – no morals attached at that point. When does it become murder? I can see that as being a little more sticky. I’m not going to enter into a infinite number of possibilities and “what if” scenarios. And I’m not really concerned with what a Christian may do in some circumstance. I’ll deal with the alien thing when it comes. In the mean time I have to ask what does the Bible lay down as just principles for taking a human life. Was it commanded by God? Was it an accident? Or, was it pre-meditated, intentional and done to benefit some party? I’d say the latter is biblically “murder” and I’d be interested in an argument otherwise. And, it sounds to me like abortion does fit in the latter category. It’s intentionally killing an innocent (innocent of any human crime deserving death, therefore the concession from God to kill under capital punishment is absent) human being. So, that would be murder. Right?
Now for your implications. I think this is more of a slippery slope. At the end you may have added “and aliens, seeing the planet in disarray at the collapse of the world super power, made haste to conquer it, devour humans in caves and plagued them with a host of sticky ethical situations.” More babies may be born to poor families. Maybe. More dysfunctional families could possibly result. Crime could increase, but not definitely. That’s a Margaret Sanger argument, bro.
I agree with your view that abortion does somewhat cover a whole problem with a band-aid solution. However, it needs to be ripped off and disposed, consequences be damned. As General “Stonewall” Jackson would say “The duty is ours – the consequences belong to God.” We can debate economic theory, but abortion (being murder) is clearly forbidden by the basic principles of Scripture. That argument is like saying that a mafia man feeds his family by being paid to kill people. Well if we ask him to obey the laws of the land, then his family will lose their income, then they’ll be poor, commit crimes with low pay rates, and then the aliens come. The main issue is obedience to God’s law – then we trust him for the consequences. Wilberforce set the pattern for this in trusting God what would happen with British economy when the slave trade was banned. I suggest we do the same in America regarding abortion. Bring on the consequences.
Again with the PL politician – slippery slope. From anti-abortion policies to running society? C’mon, buddy. You’re smarter than that and I know it. It’s not about running the country. It’s about Christians pursuing justice for the good of the land they are in (even though it’s not their permanent home). That is biblical.
We are to be a city on a hill, Daniel. But we are also called to be salt in this culture. Silly hypothetical arguments and unnecessarily syllable-convoluted sentences don’t do anything. We’re dealing with real human lives being taken for an unjust cause.
Peter - "amen" for defense of abortion? Are you the same Peter I dialogued with earlier?
Yes Andrew--same Peter.
Good biblical names, Apostles names, people transformed by the light of the world--Jesus Christ.
Daniel has many good comments though, my friend.
While he may not acknowledge that
Philosophy is the Handmaid of Theology, his astute comments about this issue are worth reflecting upon.
That is very important to realize I think.
In other words, philosophy must always serve theology, and never the other way around.
I would highly recommend a book.
Worship, Community, and the Triune God of Grace.
It is by Torrence, a great thinker and apologist for Christian Orthodoxy, as well as Orthopraxy.
Daniel d.Farmer...
sir, I dont know what your "post biblical philosophy" teaches you, but the Bible teaches me not to abort children.
"the Bible has no stance on abortion" ....what? do you want some scripture? how bout Jeremiah 1:5 when God said, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you"
...or how about in Luke when it sayd that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit...EVEN IN THE WOMB!!!!
There are more I could look to, but you combine that with the command not to murder and its pretty clear.
And sir, you spoke alot about your "philosophical position" but let me tell you that for all your philosophy, you have some huge holes in your reasoning.
#1 Even if the Bible did not mention abortion specifically, it does not follow that just because it would not mention something specifically that it wouldnt be sin. (The Bible doesnt mention snorting out of paint specifically cans either.)
#2 You have no biological, or any other kind of HARD evidence that a baby in the womb is not a full person. And you sure dont have any proof whatsoever that it is not seen as a person in the eyes of the one person that really matters....GOD.
#3 Sure, there are good occasions for killing,(God killed people) but murdering an innocent baby is not one of them. If you need a good response, listen to Huckabee's from the YOUTUBE debate.
#4. I hope you're not making the case that animals have the same rights as humans. Yes, we are to be stewards of the earth and are to take care of animal species, but they do not have the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. Also, if you read your old testmment you will see in the animal sacrifices that animals are not the same. God himself killed the first animal. Animals dont have souls. We are to be stewards of them, but they are NOT people.
#5 To summarize, you have NO Proof that abortion is NOT murder, therefore the burden of proof is on YOU SIR! since you admit that it is killing. You have to prove to me that it is not murder. And because Im a Christian, you have to do it with scripture and reason. And I assure you, you cannot. The only way you get to your position is by rationalization.
#6 I cannot believe that you just said that abortion Hides problems.....unbelievable.
#7 For someone so big on philosophy and claiming to be a Christian, I would think you would realize that you do not base whether or not you do the right thing with regards to abortion off of the problems that might result if you make it illegal. Sir....You do the right thing. period. Then you deal with the problems that come. (Plus, you have no real idea of these problems that will arise or as to what degree...they are just your speculation.)
#7 The husband in your anology...should not lie about the porn. He should not tell the truth about the porn. He should kill the problem from the start and not look at the porn. Nice try.
#8 We are the U.S. sir. We are not just members of the Church and we are not just members of the United States. We are both. And our government is set up for US to participate. If we do not, then we are irresponsible.
Sir, as Christians we ought to fight abortion on every front that we can. In my opinion, that is PART of the church "getting right" as you spoke of.
Christians must participate in all aspects of their church, community, goverments, etc. and be the "salt and light" that scripture talks about.
I think you've missed the message of scripture on this one.
And in closing, im not concerned with policies....I just want our government to quit allowing the killing of 1.3 million babies a year. When we all stand before God to be judged for our actions, do you want that amount of blood on your hands? of course not, ....you should rethink your positions and oppose the killing of children.
Abortion is not first and foremost about murder - it is about sex. That is not to undermine the evil of murder, but it does not start nor end there. After the sexual revolution of the sixties our culture saw the need to eliminate the unfortunate consequences of unfettered sex - babies. Thus, we have Roe v. Wade. If abortion were outlawed we'd have an amazing turn around in the way young unmarried women view sex. I say young unmarried women, because the vast majority of abortions occur among unmarried women between the ages of 15 and 25. The demand for unfettered sex obcures the murderous consequences in order to protect that cherished value in our culture.
Not to beat a dying horse here, but I have a couple more thoughts, for whatever they're worth. Perhaps I'll proceed in backwards order.
CalvDispy is right. Abortion is about sex. It is about how the community thinks about our embodied sexuality, our so-called 'right' to self-determination, and the kind of people we need to be to welcome children as a gift from God. Abortion is the end result of a long process of thinking gone wrong. Plugging the leak will require we pay immediate attention to its causes. Think long and hard about this. Do we want to write laws for all of this? Do we want to make divorce illegal? Do we want to make cohabitation illegal? Do we want to run the country with 'Christian' laws?
Bull, I appreciate your passion, but I question your reading of Scripture. Let me be clear, no biblical author makes a case against abortion on the basis of metaphysical principles (like the 'right to life' or the false teaching that 'life is sacred'). The 'image of God' is not the having of a Platonic 'soul' (as if animals were not ensouled beings), rather it is the calling and responsibility of humankind to be God to the world, to manifest his sovereign rule (I believe this is called the governmental view of the imago dei).
While Christians should oppose abortion, they do so not because of the U.S.A.'s legal principles, but because they have been taught to believe that children, even the inconvenient ones, are a gift from God. Going back to CD's comment, the Church has failed to have a good witness on abortion precisely because we've had a bad witness on sex. Something to work on.
The heart of my stance on this issue has to do with the relationship between the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of the world. Many of you here are guilty of an idolatrous fusion of the kingdoms. It is difficult for many of you to imagine that our calling as Christians might entail a refusal to 1. join the army 2. kill for some politician's whim 3. use 'we' to mean 'Americans' rather than 'Christians', and so forth.
I'm all for 'being salt', but the way we are to be salt is by being us, by being the Church. Whatever involvement we have in 'civilian affairs' (which Paul reminds us not to get too tangled up with) is secondary to the country we have pledged unconditional allegiance to through baptism: the Church, the Bride, the Body.
You want to affect the world for good? God bless you. I'm just afraid you may be in for more than you might think. Perhaps that energy would be better spent in the Church.
That's all for now.
For Christ and his Kingdom.
Peace.
-Daniel-
Daniel, I'll be honest....alot of that was a big bag of pooey. (And yes I said pooey and Im not apologizing because thats what it was.)
And you're ignoring the issue that abortion is not a 'civilian' thing....it a human thing.
William Wilberforce would be crapping his pants right now to here a Christian talk about how he had the chance to be involved in the political process to stop a gross evil but didnt.
Also, abortion is not all about sex. Thats just something that seems clever that you guys have bought into. Yes, sex and views of sex are part of the abortion problem, but they are not the root.
I could trace problems much deeper beyond the sex back to things like selfishness, pride, control, and further back to rejection of God's authority in people's lives...
My point is that who cares at what strategic point the problem starts?
Sin makes problems on all levels and the problem is that some people like you want to sit around and talk about what we need to do....look man....work on getting peoples views on sex right. Combat sin by preaching the gospel and telling them about the joy that comes from serving Christ. Pray that God will turn hearts and will grow up people who love His authority....
Yes! Do all of that! Be the CHURCH!! But also be the CHURCH and be a person with some common SENSE! and go VOTE!!! Vote against abortion! Hit the problem from every angle you can. Just because Im a member of Christs church doesnt mean I have to be a complete Idiot and not take the God given chance to oppose abortion through my vote!
Good grief man. Where did you get these ideas. You are taking a HUGE risk. A risk that you have no concrete evidence for and Im telling you right now. (...and you talk about my energy and how it could be better used serving the church...well, I believe thats what Im doing. Maybe my efforts will save the lives of some of those millions that are dying and maybe one day they too will be members of the church...)
...And Im pleading with you man. You are making a huge mistake. Your philosophy has led you astray and for something SOOOOOO big as abortion, I urge you to have the intellectual integrity and the heart to reconsider what you are saying. You do not have everything figured out.
The worst evil is for good men to do nothing. And when we dont oppose abortion with our voices and out vote, thats exactly what we are doing...great evil...because we are doing nothing.
I am seriously troubled by your state of mind Daniel and Im telling you and when we get to heaven (Im assuming you are going) if you dont change your mind between now and then if wont be me correcting you, it will be God.
You're kinda like that joke that Jerry Clower used to tell about the guy that got caught in a flood, and as the water rose, rescuers came by in a boat and said "We've come to rescue you!" ...and the Man said "No thanks guys....God's gonna take care of me."
And as the water rose, the man got on his roof and another boat came by and they yelled to him..."Sir, you've got to come with us, the water is still rising!"
...and the man said, "No thanks guys, God's gonna take care of me"
and the water rose some more and the man was on his chimney and a helicopter flew over and over the megaphone a rescuer yelled, " Sir! Take hold of the rope!"
...and the man said, "No thanks guys, God's gonna take care of me"
....well, the man died. And when he got to heaven he went to God and asked him "God, why did you let me die? I thought you were gonna take care of me!" ....
...And God said, "I did you idiot, I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"
...and the lesson of the story here is this....You are missing the obvious. God is using me to tell you that you need to fight abortion and as a responsible member of the church you do that in a lot of ways...and one OBVIOUS way is to vote!
I hope you change your mind.
Justin, thanks for pointing this out...it's absolutely amazing and disgusting that any Christian would support someone pushing such social policies.
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