"The Discipline of Discernment"
114 comments | PermalinkHere are the blurbs:
"Tim Challies is one of the finest young evangelical thinkers of our day. He combines keen insight with theological maturity and spiritual depth. His weblog is required reading, and The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment should help form the Christian character of a new generation of evangelicals. Indeed, we must hope so."
—R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
"John Murray said, “The difference between truth and error is not a chasm but a razor’s edge.” Spurgeon said something like it too: “Discernment is not a matter of simply telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather, it is the difference between right and almost right.” Both these giants are emphasizing the vital quality (and difficulty) of discernment. Unfortunately, in our time—even among Christians—discernment is long in demand and short in supply. This is but one reason I’m so delighted to commend to you The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment. Tim reminds us that the Bible constantly commands us to cultivate discernment, but he doesn’t stop there. He tells us how, biblically."
—Ligon Duncan, senior minister, First Presbyterian Church, Jackson, Mississippi
"The many fans Tim Challies has won through his highly regarded blog will discover in this book the motivation that drives his incisive analysis of cultural events and trends—a keen respect for truth and a passionate commitment to biblical discernment."
—
“If you want to be discerning, you will buy this book. If you read it, you will be! Tim Challies has written on an important topic that is rarely addressed. This book on discernment is simple, clear, well-written, accurate and even insightful. I read it all. I liked it all. I will recommend it often. Ten short, pithy chapters—read one a day for ten days, and I you’ll find yourself more discerning—or at least wanting to be.”
—
"The path to most biblical graces is bordered with hazards on both sides. With the subject of this book—discernment—one can fall into the ditch of careless naiveté on the left or wander into the dark woods of a critical spirit on the right. Tim Challies carefully guides his reader between these dangers and on toward Christlike discernment. I’ve simply never read a more thorough, practical, and biblically sound treatment of this subject. Anyone wanting to study biblical discernment should not miss this book."
—Don Whitney, associate professor of biblical spirituality; senior associate dean, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
posted by JT at Wednesday, January 02, 2008
114 Comments:
Who is Tim Challies?
I pre-ordered, and Tim spent his Christmas vacation stuffing autographed copies into envelopes and mailing them.
Hope mine is in the mail today.
@ Don Moore
Tim Challies is the evangelical blogger from Challies Dot Com.
I received my two autographed copies today (one for my Pastor). I started it before scanning this blog. Seems like a winner. I'm going back to it now and hope to have it finished by tomorrow. God Bless Tim.
So being a blogger (no offense JT) is the mark of being an evangelical author?
I don't know if being a blogger is the mark of being an evangelical author, but I'm guessing that writing a book for an evangelical publishing house is qualification enough.
Tim Challies I know, but who is Don Moore?
I never meant any ill toward Tim Challies, I was just surprised that, as his website says, a web designing blogger now writes books on spiritual discernment. When did our pastors and bible teachers quit doing this and your laypeople assume the roll?
Don... right on dude!
I like TC's blog; but I guess if you live-blog at enough famous pastors Bible conferences then you can get endorsements from just about anyone :-).
Don,
I agree. I think it started when pastors decided to abandon their pulpits for political office.
Helen Wales
Anonymous said
"Don... right on dude!"
Hmmm. Has EVERY book on Theology and Christian Life ALWAYS been written ONLY by Pastors and Bible Teachers?
I remember reading an interchange on Tim's blog regarding global warming and Tim took the typical Christian conservative tack which some of his readers challenged. Eventually, Tim made the blanket statement that global warming is nothing more than a bunch of anti-God, anti-biblical scientists with an agenda. He may think differently now but I thought his response was very immature. It's interesting that he has now written a book about spiritual discernment.
Don and Anonymous
I wouldn't come down too hard on Tim; he's just trying to make his mark like all of us are and get his fifteen minutes of fame.
Here is a link to a very brief, yet biblical definition of what discernment really is by my friend, John MacArthur.
My only prayer for Tim is that he is young, theologically immature, and untested in handling God's Word. He also began writing this book by polling his own blog readers in helping him define what discernment is. That is a true sign of insecurity, lack of knowledge, and "a tell" that he really isn't well-versed on this subject.
I can't remember the last time any credible author solicited his audience a head of time for help on content as he/she was writing their tome.
I do wish Tim well with his efforts and hope the Lord blesses his tome.
As to endorsements: very few of these guys actually sit down and read through an entire book of any author they are asked to review. Most give a thumbs up through staff recommendations or because of friendship.
In the end, the tome must stand or fall on its own. I just hope that now his book is finally out, that he will pull down the endorsements from his own web page; I mean self-promotion does get old quick.
Have a great New Year's Week with your families... I am enjoying mine this vacation too.
Grace and peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14
Steve,
I usually make a practice of ignoring your comments, but do you see any irony in the fact that you cite "your friend" John MacArthur's definition of discernment, but MacArthur--who did indeed read the book--wrote that "Tim Challies is uniquely qualified to write on the subject. I don't know of a more reliable or more prolific commentator on the contemporary evangelical scene.... Tim obviously values clarity and biblical accuracy--and those qualities all come through in this excellent work as well."
I pray you'd read the book--and heed it. You're giving discernment a bad name.
Justin
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JT
I know that you ignore most comments on your blog, but it is good to see you interact at least from time to time.
I know what John said...
Grace and peace,
Steve
Justin,
nice burn!!!
but you've got to admit, Don has a point
Tim may very well be a great guy, but what beyond his blog, are his credentials?
how can evangelicals, myself included, allow people with no professional training or practice(education, pastoring, etc.) to write authoritatively on the subject we hold dearest?
Would a biologist stand for an accountant writing authoritatively on his field?
interesting, indeed!
To all you Tim-bashers.
What are your qualifications for judging his qualifications?
Sounds like a bit of jealousy to me!
Man. I come here to read what people are saying about the Challies juggernaut, and I find Justin Taylor speaking plainly to Steve Camp!
Challies may have actually started a revolution.
TeamPyro is on-deck for the Challies blog tour on Jan 16 with a mini-interview and an unadulterated endorsement of Tim's book. We look forward to having people reading books from guys like Challies, even if he won't admit to reading our blog.
:-)
Has anyone thought for a moment that blogging is how would be book writers reach today's generation who refuse to pick up a book?
In another time Challies may have started with books. Blogging is the influence of the day friends (as you all know). I would have no idea who Justin Taylor was if it weren't for his blog. Or Al Mohler or Phil Johnson, Dan Phillips, and many others.
Not that just having a blog qualifies you.
Another thing. . .Aren't we talking about God's truth? Found in the Bible? Available to all men? Do you need a degree to write a book on the truth of God's word? Really Chad, Challies isn't an accountant in a biologist's field. He is a Christian writing a Christian book.
The book stands or falls on whether it is faithful to God's word as all books do.
I know many books written by men who are "qualified" that fall well short of the Biblical standard of God's word (enter "What Love is This?") I am interested to see Challies book fares.
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For the nay sayers, btw, I have a little theory:
Let's say that we live in a world which, as Steve Camp would say, is in dire straits because in the church of Jesus Christ, people have sunk so low as to think that the music they hear of Christian Radio is actually a spiritual exercise. It's a world where discernment is frankly waning.
Enter a book from a highly-reputable publishing house which makes a point of publishing books at the popular level on the greatest questions of theology for this generation. That book received the highest marks from what can only be called some of the most faithful men of our generation, and it has all the earmarks of serious apologetic and didcatic writing -- a meaningful subject index, and a complete Scripture index, and well as what is frankly careful and sober exegetical handling of Scripture.
Here's the theory: in the world we have hypothesized, above, no one would be qualified especially from a series of endorsements to say the theoretical Challies is only sawdust, only irrelevant.
But even if Tim Challies were a man in a cell, convicted of a heinous crime, this book would be evidence that he has, at least, found the only Savior of men and the wisdom of the foundation of Moses, the prophets and apostles. Tim is instead a long-time commentator and writer on the topic of American Evangelicalism, and a friend to many of us in the blogoshpere.
Let's be clear: Tim's voice is very different than mine, and often I think he is too gentle and too subdued, too often seeking an elusive standard of "fairness". But anyone seeking to criticize Tim has to step over his work here without violating the principles this work expounds and demonstrates.
Good luck to you on that account. This work is classic Challies, and in that, it ought to be on your front book case, if not your top shelf.
Especially if you are a blogger.
the issue isn't qualification makes one worthy
the issue is how we determine legitimacy
sound education and proven experience?
or prolific blogging?
the legitimacy of theology is on the downgrade if our authoritative writers are chosen on the basis of e-popularity
" Winston said...
the issue isn't qualification makes one worthy"
Sorry, Winston, but that is the exact point of some on this blog - they are questioning the qualifications of Tim.
"don moore said...
I never meant any ill toward Tim Challies, I was just surprised that, as his website says, a web designing blogger now writes books on spiritual discernment. When did our pastors and bible teachers quit doing this and your laypeople assume the roll?"
"CS said...
I don't know if being a blogger is the mark of being an evangelical author, but I'm guessing that writing a book for an evangelical publishing house is qualification enough."
"Chad said...
Justin,
nice burn!!!
but you've got to admit, Don has a point Tim may very well be a great guy, but what beyond his blog, are his credentials?"
(BTW, those of you who are writing your opinions about Tim's writings might want to check your own use of grammar and syntax!)
Here are Tim's credentials according to the publisher:
"Tim Challies, a self-employed web designer, is a pioneer in the Christian blogosphere, having one of the most widely read and recognized Christian blogs. He is also editor of Discerning Reader, a site dedicated to offering thoughtful reviews of books that are of interest to Christians."
So if any of us start a blog and it gets lots of readers, can we get a book deal too?
Centurion
I like some of your thoughts here Frank in this comment - you are beginning to sound a lot like Campi :-).
But you do say this: That book received the highest marks from what can only be called some of the most faithful men of our generation,
You left out the fact that Tim has live-blogged for each of these guys at various conferences and thus there is a political element for their endorsement. But that's OK; and not uncommon. We all understand that men will sometimes bend over backwards like this for friends. That's cool.
But here is a question for you: I read awhile back on Tim's own blog that he considers discernment "a spiritual gift." Now where does Scripture ever refer that? No where. Why didn't Tim call his book "The Gift of Spiritual Discernment"? Because he knows it is something that is learned (a discipline), not a gift.
I agree with you we need discernment; but your endorsement of Tim doesn't mean a hill of beans or that you and other bloggers signed up for his blogging tour (whatever that means).
I really like how Winston put it here: the legitimacy of theology is on the downgrade if our authoritative writers are chosen on the basis of e-popularity."
Amen!
JT
Why do you ignore literally everyone on your blog who disagrees with you? Don, Chad, Anonymous and others here have asked some good questions - but you won't even give them the time of day.
So are you going to ignore me now too and say unkind things about me?
We all know that the only reason you published this book is that Tim's blog can produce sales. If he had the popularity of a much smaller blogger you wouldn't give this a second look.
We all get it -- we just want to hear you say you get it.
Bill
PS - Doug, no one is jealous; just being discerning. :-).
JT:
Welcome to the other side of the tracks, dude. There ain't nothin' meaner than a junk yard blogger.
__________
Bill (anonymous):
That is frankly the ugliest thing I have ever read anyone ever say about someone else's pastor -- and you have just said it about many pastors who have a history of Godly discernment and pastoral care. Nice work -- you are obviously someone who should read Tim's book.
I am about to chat with a ECMer at DebateBlog on the question of doctrine and practice, and when I am finished with him, I invite you to join me in an exchange on this thesis:
Unresolved slander or libel is a sin which disqualifies one from fellowship with other believers, including participation at the Lord's table.
I would take the affirmative.
I heard once that the author of Pilgrim's Progress was a tinker.
JT - Don't you think you give discernment a bad name when you give wholehearted endorsements to people like Douglas Wilson and his Federal Visionism, or Mark Driscoll and his Vintage Emerging Faith, or political candidates, but yet, you don't ever explain why, and when people challenge you, you choose to ignore everyone and their questions, except of course for your occaisional cheap shot at Steve Camp.
This not only lacks discernment, but integrity as well.
This is very unfortunate.
Winston is right when he said -
"the legitimacy of theology is on the downgrade if our authoritative writers are chosen on the basis of e-popularity." Therefore JT, as Tim's publisher, what do you think Tim's biblical credentials are for writing authoritatively about such a heavy subject as discernment?
Jeanne
"That is frankly the ugliest thing I have ever read anyone ever say about someone else's pastor"
Frank,
you show your greatest discernment when you refrain from speaking.
Helen
Frank,
"Unresolved slander or libel is a sin which disqualifies one from fellowship with other believers, including participation at the Lord's table" you must know that this is not even remotely biblical. The only sin anyone is disfellowshipped for and denied the Lord's table is the sin of unrepentance. When a fellow Christian is properly and biblically walked through church discipline (Matt. 18:15-20; Gal. 6:1-4) and remain hardened in their sin, then and then only are they put out of the church.
It's not "unresolved slander or libel", it's unrepentant slander or libel. But then again, if you were a discerning blogger, you would have known that already.
BTW, does this standard apply to you and`the other Pyromaniacs?
Physician, heal thyself.
Game. Set. Match.
Helen
For everyone questioning the "credentials" of Tim you better throw away any Tozer books you may have read in your life. Since he was minus a seminary education of any kind. And I say all of this as a seminary student who does not agree with Tim that often but have recognized his gift for writing and incredible diligence in personal study and learning.
I love Helen and all her e-mailing friends.
BTW, Helen, the invite to D-blog my thesis is open to you, too.
Jeanne: We don't know each other but please read Mark Driscoll's chapter in the book JT edited with John Piper (The Supremacy of God in a Postmodern World) and then tell me that Driscoll is part of a "Vintage Emerging Faith". I'm throughly Reformed and I got turned onto Driscoll from this blog. I watch a Driscoll sermon every week on my iPhone. He may not be ordained but he's Reformed through and through. Mars Hill itself may be a bit unorthodox on a Reformed scale but so is Seattle.
As far as Tim Challies' qualifications go, I wonder how many of the nay-sayers on this blog, have travelled to and participated in as many Reformed seminars as Tim has. That on top of his uncanny ability to write consistently well and a prolific reading rate (despite raising a young family and maintaining employment) seems to foot the bill.
Tim knows the Gospel. Read the book. I'm 1/3 of the way through it. It's, no doubt, a first book but I see it as a great study guide for young adult groups.
You are all missing it! If you really had discernment you'd see that Ron Paul is the man our country needs! Forget Tim Challies! Forget Steve Camp! Ron Paul! Ron Paul!
—Power Recommended
Helen: "BTW, does this standard apply to you and`the other Pyromaniacs?"
Yes, it does.
What are you talking about? People sometimes accuse us of being too mean-spirited, too light-hearted, too sarcastic, too precise, too hard to understand, too sure of our opinions, too concerned with extrabiblical issues, and too narrowly focused on Scripture. But I can't recall that anyone ever has accused us of "slander."
Have you got a concrete example you want to point out, or was that just a slap-shot from the opposite end of the arena?
Note to JT:
I replied to your e-mail, but Crossway classifies me as "spam" which the IT department has to review -- which is bizarre because I've been trading e-mails with Michelle (Challies' PR person) for a month now.
(sigh) They are probably right, but if you can fish my e-mail out of the filter it's good for a laugh.
To the nay-sayers:
Have you read the book? Find within its pages things that detract from the Gospel, find things that are error. You say he is not qualified to write on this, is God given wisdom and discernment only for the scholars? If what he has written is Biblical (and I find that it is, but who am I...just a layperson) then what matter is it what his day job is?
"The book stands or falls on whether it is faithful to God's word as all books do."
Exactly.
Bill
"You left out the fact that Tim has live-blogged for each of these guys at various conferences and thus there is a political element for their endorsement. But that's OK; and not uncommon. We all understand that men will sometimes bend over backwards like this for friends. That's cool."
I dare say you've just implied that the men who endorsed his book have no interest in being sure that Tim produces solid, Biblical teaching...that they lack the integrity to refuse to endorse something that is unscriptural for the sake of offending their friends? Amazing.
"But here is a question for you: I read awhile back on Tim's own blog that he considers discernment "a spiritual gift." Now where does Scripture ever refer that? No where. Why didn't Tim call his book "The Gift of Spiritual Discernment"? Because he knows it is something that is learned (a discipline), not a gift."
Is spiritual discernment something that can be learned outside and apart from God's grace? If not, then it is a gift of God.
Mira ese --
I was gonna riff on this appearance of the Steve Camp fan club, but I just took in Crossway's banner ad for Challies' biblia ... otra ves -- "a book, eh?"
¡Antes que te cases mira lo que haces!
JT
First of all congratulations on a huge Huckabee win this evening in Iowa. This helped McCain in N.H. too. But on to the issue of this thread.
Secondly, the issue that so many are asking on this thread, that still goes ignored by you, is legitimate: what qualifies someone to speak for God and His Word? What credentials are necessary in representing the Lord and His truth in the public arena? As Don Moore said, "When did our pastors and bible teachers quit doing this and your laypeople assume the roll?"
Important questions.
Thirdly, blogging has afforded anyone with a computer today to be "in the game" and a potential voice for change on a myriad of issues from faith to family to culture to politics. It is the great leveler of the playing field in today's world. Unnerving, to be sure, for old media adherents.
Fourthly, in this e-arena we know that some blogs will become more popular and read than others and thus carry a greater influence in their chosen sphere as well. Over time, each blog slowly takes on a personality of their own. With that influence comes opportunity; and with opportunity comes responsibility. I think Winston's comment bears repeating here. It is especially profound on this matter: "the legitimacy of theology is on the downgrade if our authoritative writers are chosen on the basis of e-popularity."
I agree wholeheartedly with his words.
On to the question: what qualifies someone to speak for God and His Word? Is it the popularity of a blogger that gives that authority? Is it the various endorsements from gifted men of God we love and respect that creates the credentials?
I don't think so.
What is the answer? I believe it is the leadership of the local church.
The one missing name and voice in regards to Tim's book among many fine names are his pastors and church. (I do realize they might be included in the book, and I don’t mean on a thank you list, but I haven’t received my copy yet.) I think it would be a tremendous signal to others to have ones pastor write the forward of the book and the leadership (elders) of his church as a body collectively endorse this tome visibly and be publicly featured more so than any other names. Why? Because under God and the command of His Word they are the ones who will have to give an account for how they have kept watch over our souls (Heb. 13:17).
Fifthly, anyone in ministry (local church, itinerant, internet, publishing, music, etc.) should be part of a local church and accountable to its leadership. In an age of unbridled media and content, such as the blogosphere affords itself, what a great protection and standard to have ones own work affirmed (and I don't just mean ceremoniously but in actuality) and governed by the leadership of ones church over the materials produced by its membership for the marketplace. Churches used to do this with its music in the hymnal. And part of the process wasn't just to give an endorsement upon the finished product, but to be intimately involved in the formation of those materials as well. It was even stamped upon the hymnal with language that went something like, “the elders at First Presb. Church affirm the contents of this hymnal as being profitable for public use in the worship of the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Tim's book might be biblically solid, theologically sound, and profitable for godliness, etc. Again, I wish him well with what ever success the Lord grace's him with. But in spite of Tim's lack of formal training, theological or doctrinal acumen, or youthfulness, to have the full weight endorsement from the leadership of his church officially sign off on the doctrinal clarity and biblical soundness of his book would be profound. I’m sure they have done so if not formally, individually. But to have that publicly stamped on his work would be a powerful statement in our day. And part of that approval would be to have Tim, or any author, tested on the essentials of the faith and his ability to rightly divide the word of truth under their scrutiny as one approved by God and unashamed as a workman.
Bookstores aren't discerning for they will take whatever will sell regardless of theological content. Publishers aren't discerning for they primarily want to produce whatever the consumer driven market will support.
But the local church is different. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth. It's concerns are heavenly: to proclaim truth, to bring every man to maturity in Christ, to hold people accountable to the truth, to contend for the truth, to worship in spirit and in truth, etc. Therefore, the greatest endorsement and approval any author could enjoy is the wholehearted approval of his or her eldership on the content and substance of their books, CD's, blogs, etc. This is a stewardship and a trust given to them by God. It is a trust to be guarded.
This also serves as a testimony to others of the importance of the covering and accountability the local church should have with its membership that may be involved in ministering to others in the public marketplace about the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word.
IMHO, I believe that they are all the credentials our brother needs to speak faithfully and biblically in any book he may pen. And that endorsement should always be respected.
Thank you for listening...
Grace and peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14
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Steve Camp wrote:
“The one missing name and voice in regards to Tim's book among many fine names are his pastors and church...”
I fully endorse Tim’s book. More than that, I fully endorse Tim’s life. He is a faithful, encouraging, serving, accountable, “normal,” giving member of our church.
Paul Martin
Pastor
Grace Fellowship Church, Toronto
www.gfcto.com
P.S. I also really read the book... and really liked it! Just like the other (published) endorsers read it and liked it... whose names help establish a first-time author a lot more than mine does! :-)
Steve,
Your elevation of church leadership to the Imprimatur Committee for one's books is totally unbiblical.
By that standard, Brian McClaren's, N.T. Wright's, and Benny Hinn's books might be "acceptable", while Martin Luther's would not.
Your calling church leadership a "covering" is just New Apostolic cultic lingo for the unbiblical concept that church leadership should control you. You may not mean it that way, but I'd be real careful. Part of discernment is discerning how we relate biblically to church leadership.
To all,
1. I read LOTS of books, and can't remember ever agreeing with any book 100%.
I would be a terrible book store owner, because I would only have a few volumes I would dare to let everyone read, and then I'd want to spend a half hour pointing out to customers where a book deviates from my understanding of Scripture.
I would want to do everyone's discerning for them.
Having said that, I received my copy of Tim's book and would highly recommend it. He has put his heart and his brain into it. It wastes no words, and is wonderful.
2. Where does sola scriptura go when people start talking about "credentials"? What a ridiculous unbiblical concept.
Some of the most "credentialed" men in theology are heretics, and my 4 ft. 11 in. little grandma with her KJV had more biblical knowledge and discernment than many "scholars" I read.
I'm not knocking scholarship, but it is attained in many ways, not the least of which is in researching and writing Bible-based books, which should be judged with discernment on their own merits, not on the degrees of the author, nor the Imprimatur of his elder board.
Julian's comment about the Tinker who wrote Pilgrim's Progress is right on, and lest anyone say, "That was just a fictional allegoy," that tinker wrote some pretty heavy theology books, too.
3. Finally, I love marketing. I am a marketer.
Marketing is morally and biblically neutral. It, like a hammer, can be used for good or evil. Marxist thinking has so permeated our society that we often think marketing is automatically bad. It isn't.
Blessings,
Terry
Challies responds. challies.com
Should I not attend a Sunday school class taught by a godly and knowledgable lay person who wasn't trained in seminary?
rick
Don,
First, it's "role", not "roll". And Bible should be capitalized. I'm assuming you are a pastor, based on the clergy-oriented nature of your comment. Maybe lay people have to do the work because the clergy are too lazy to pay attention to quality of output.
Second, your comment is offensive to lay people everywhere, who are every bit as qualified and authorized to teach as you are. We are for more than paying your salary, dude.
I wouldn't come down too hard on Tim; he's just trying to make his mark like all of us are and get his fifteen minutes of fame.
Is that sarcasm Steve? You know, the issue with which you stated your repentence?
My friend, John MacArthur.
A bit of name dropping?
My only prayer for Tim is that he is young, theologically immature, and untested in handling God's Word. He also began writing this book by polling his own blog readers in helping him define what discernment is. That is a true sign of insecurity, lack of knowledge, and "a tell" that he really isn't well-versed on this subject.
Wow. A bit harsh don't you think. How do you know these things about Tim? Have you ever met him or conversed with him? Have you contacted his pastor before making these assumptions? Remember Paul when writing another Tim stated, "Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity."
I can't remember the last time any credible author solicited his audience a head of time for help on content as he/she was writing their tome.
So what. Does this disqualify a writer?
I do wish Tim well with his efforts and hope the Lord blesses his tome.
You speak out of both sides of your mouth.
I mean self-promotion does get old quick.
Of course, you don't engage in any self-promotion, right Steve?
I wonder when you will see that you really tear down other Christians with unqualified statements and self-righteous judgements. It is like you have a streak of jealousy or something. I would really love to see you write something that shows a bit of sincere humility and genuine encouragement instead of arrogance towards other Christians trying to be faithful and obedient to what God has called them to.
Otherwise: Good point Julian, about John Bunyan being a tinker.
It's so nice to see the brethren getting alone in such a peaceful Godly fashion.
And golly, how about that Apostle Peter and all his diplomas? So much for perspicuity.
candyinsierras,
Bunyan was a pastor, right?
sounds like credentials to me
josh,
Peter walked/lived with Jesus, right?
sounds like credentials to me
Steve,
I really USED to respect you. Maybe you should try reading the book before you speak about it and it's author. Maybe you should re-read James 1:19 and be a little slower to speak.
Jason
Why are people so focused on the character of the author rather than the content of what was written?
Whether or not Tim actually should have written the book seems to be a question that few here should really be attempting to answer.
The real question should be, is what is written in line with Biblical truth? All truth is eternal and based on the character of God alone. We may find God's truth in the words or writings of a learned scholar or we may find it in the bumblings of an uneducated fool (by worldly standards) who knows God more than many who in our day who claim to be shepherds of God's people.
hmmm... so Steve Camp wants to attack Challies' book because Challies is just a blogger.
And somehow Camp's being a musician gives him the credentials and credibility to attack such a thing?
Interesting...
I am not a big Challies' fan. Him and I are quite different in our theology and ideologies.
But to attack the book because he doesn't have proper qualifications is silly. Are you all part of the Catholic church now? Whatever happened to the priesthood of all believers?
Why are people so focused on the character of the author rather than the content of what was written?
They are aren't even attacking his character. Well... not quite true, a few are. And Steve Camp did very well at attacking Challies' character by claiming he is just trying to get his "15 minutes of fame."
But for the most part they are not attacking his character. They are attacking something as silly as whether or not he has the proper qualifications.
By the way... Steve Camp sings "theology" in his music. Is he really qualified to sing about theology?
I am not even sure if he is qualified to blog about it...
Actually Steve. I think you owe Tim Challies a public apology.
Stephen H.: John Bunyon had very little formal education. He began to preach and was noticed for his ability and gift to do so.
Spurgeon had no seminary training and began preaching as a young man. He was noticed for his ability and gift to do so.
If I think hard enough, I am sure I can find many examples of lay people who have written great books or gone on to be pastors and teachers without the "proper" credentials.
Why would anyone despise a work of God in somebody's life, used to edify the Body of Christ, because they are just beginning to grow in that area? We should be encouraging each other in the gifts that God has bestowed upon us instead of finding fault.
Candy
Your words are not helpful to anyone here and usually I avoid them.
But the issue is simple: what gives someone the ability to speak for God? That has been asked here many times with JT still being silent and others like you avoiding it.
Steve said the obvious that many of us didn't have the courage to say. Don't shoot him - he's only a piano player :-).
I like Tim's blog and some of his writings. But come on, Tim is a big boy and if he can't handle a little criticism he shouldn't be an author.
What I do find interesting is that you don't see your flippant sarcastic tone as a problem.
From one woman to another - better part of wisdom would be to be quiet.
Shelly
Stop minimizing his being "just a blogger" as if that is inherently useless. A poor blogger, or an unwise one, or one with no truth to tell, is soon unsubscribed out of existence.
You can gain the kind of credibility being discussed here in two ways:
First, you can study and earn a degree or a position of importance. The letters after your name or your job title can lead us to trust your opinion because inherent in them is the assumption that you managed to convince a large number of wise, knowledgeable people that you know what you are talking about. We trust that if they were satisfied, we can be too. It's trust by proxy.
But for a Christian blogger to build a reputation and a readership as Tim Challies has, he has to have shown a long history of writing wise, insightful, scripturally valid material. That history is his credentials. You know a tree by its fruit. It's trust built first-hand.
He's not popular merely because he writes a lot (which has been implied in comments here). He's popular because he writes consistently useful and challenging material.
What better credentials are there?
I can't help but notice the many parting shots left that often apply to the writer as much as it does to the reader. The better part of wisdom for all of us is to be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. I'm thankful that God does not deal with us in the manner Christians often deal with one another.
In regard to Tim Challies' writing a book- J.I. Packer said in Knowing God that the average sermon hearer and Bible reader who is filled with the Holy Spirit will have a better knowledge and understanding of his God and Savior than the seminary trained theologian who is more concerned with being "theologically correct" (paraphrase). Praise God that He uses individuals on the basis of His calling and empowering rather than our abilities or worthiness. The disciples are the quintessential example of common, untrained men whose only qualification was that they were called by Christ. Speaking as a pastor, pastors do not have an innate quality or mark of worthiness whereby we can preach, teach, write, blog, encourage, etc... These are gifts from God to be used for His glory and for the building up of His church. I don't begrudge Tim his blog or his book, and I pray that our God will use it to help us (the Church) become more discerning.
Furthermore, I lament the nature of both driving and blogging in that they remove any personality from those around us. People aren't people- they are cars (when driving) or faceless comments (on the web). However, believers will be held accountable for every idle word, and that includes our comments on blogs. My fear is that many comments I leave and that I read from others aren't idle- they are much worse in that they are very much on purpose. Reminder to myself and others- may our words be seasoned with salt, and be profitable for building one another up and drawing attention to our great God, even when we disagree.
Joyfully His,
Aaron
Thank you Aaron,
I think that if people are going to slam Tim Challies book they should at least read it first...I highly respect him and can't wait to read his book! Because he is not a pastor does that mean that he cannot understand and write about what the bible teaches?
I am surprised by this thread and by some people who I thought were above this sort of thing.
Let the man write a book.
Read the book.
Give it some thought and some prayer.
Then let the mud fly if need be.
But please don’t stoop to attacking the author or his endorsers or his publisher or his critics without checking your own bias and carnality
Let us be humble.
Let us speak in love as brothers and sisters.
Led us guard the faith and the faithful.
Forgive me if I am out line. And may those who have written to score points or who now see their error apologize too.
May this divisive thread be turned around so that Tim and Justin and Steve and others are held in honor and their spiritual giftedness is not further tarnished.
Aaron, beautiful reply to the question of qualifications that Shelly demanded an answer for: But the issue is simple: what gives someone the ability to speak for God? That has been asked here many times with JT still being silent and others like you avoiding it.
In short, the answer is the Bible. Proving the need for a book such as Tim's. Anyone with credentials or not can write a book, it is up to each of us to discern whether it is Biblical or not. Dismissing a book simply because the author is apparently untrained is quite undiscerning.
For those who want more of Tim's credentials, read much of what he writes on his websites (challies.com) and (discerningreader.com) and read his book reviews on Amazon.com. Tim has read and reviewed hundreds of books more than many of us have known existed. Tim doesn't need defending (as he has shown he isn't too concerned about the negative comments about him), but there are many unbiblical comments about qualifications to being a teacher that need to be and have been addressed.
"as he has shown he isn't too concerned about the negative comments about him"
No? Then why did make an entire post out of it?
Why are reasonable questions and concerns instantly interpreted as malice toward Tim?
I’m on the side of the ‘questioners’, but don’t question Tim’s motives or character at all.
Lets not let immaturity over someone questioning “your boy” make us jump to rash ‘i’ve got your back’ conclusions.
if steve camp takes the guttersnipe route, so be it
God bless Tim C.
Who is Steve Camp?
I like Tim's blog and some of his writings. But come on, Tim is a big boy and if he can't handle a little criticism he shouldn't be an author.
It is ok for someone to critique Tim's book, and I am sure he can handle a critique just fine. What is not ok is to criticize and make assumptions about Tim's character, qualifications, and motivations for writing a book.
I agree that I am not exactly an example of graciousness or wisdom, but Steve Camp is also a big boy and should be able to handle someone telling him that maybe he needs to be an encouragement to others of the reformed faith instead of a self proclaimed Reformed Blog Policeman.
He wrote a blog post about it to discuss the credibility of the endorsers, not himself.
This whole discussion reminds me of trying to find a new job out of college. Most places won't hire you because you have no experience. How are you supposed to get experience if nobody hires you? Let the guy write a book and don't judge it by its author, but by its contents.
I haven't interpreted any comments as malice toward Tim. It's fine to ask questions (its part of discernment), but they haven't been relevant. What I am saying is, "Who cares who the author is? Read the book and comment on its contents. Compare it to the Bible and discuss if its accurate."
I must say I am a little saddened and disappointed by the total lack of grace displayed by some people here (to my surprise started to a great extent by Steve Camp). Most of you are speaking about a person you don't know personally, and a book you most likely haven't read. Let's show a little more grace to a brother in Christ and not be so quick to judge.
Anonymous at 1/04/2008 1:37pm said...
""as he has shown he isn't too concerned about the negative comments about him"
No? Then why did make an entire post out of it?"
Obviously you did not actually read Tim's post as even the title "Endorsing the Endorsers" makes clear, what bothered him was how those who endorsed his book were being impugned with less that honest motives or with not having read the book themselves. He was seeking to point out that was not the case at all. So, his motive and the primary focus of his response was to defend those who endorsed his book from the comments given here.
I have not read his book yet, but the whole question of his qualifications is down right silly. I have a Masters of Divinity, but I know that Tim has read much more than I have, and it shows in his writing.
Furthermore, what is with this "pastors only should teach" line of thinking. What happened to the priesthood of all believers? What happened to the Spirit indwelling all believers? I realize this is probably an overreaction to some of the wackos out there, but all it takes is some reading at Tim's blog to see he seeks to stay true to Scripture as well as he can. That is much better than many people who have the title of reverend or pastor out there who are writing books that question the veracity, sufficiency and source of Scripture and instead give out man made philosophies that lead only to death.
Read the book. Then if you don't like it, let your comments fly. Until then remember everyone has to start somewhere. Not one of the writers, pastors, theologians, etc started with all they now have to their name.
Finally, Steve, brother, I held you in high esteem until I read your comments here. I encourage you to repent and seek forgiveness for such unwise words.
Ok, let's see. According to Camp:
a. Having endorsements on your own webpage = "self-promotion."
b. Self-promotion "gets old quick."
c. Steve Camp has this on his webpage: "John MacArthur once introduced me at Grace Community Church as: "Keith Green with theology."
Therefore...
d. Steve Camp is getting old really quick.
:-)
Steve, I'll be checking to make sure you drop that endorsement from your page.
Sincerely,
A reader who never contributes to these kinds of things but just couldn't resist!
I'll say the same thing here I said over at Challies:
All of you - critics AND supporters - are doing nothing but swatting the air. If you really want to say something of meaning or lasting value, then address what Tim has written, for that is what matters.
This kind of thing is why we look so idiotic to the world sometimes.
Pheh!
To All
I want to publicly ask forgiveness for my initial comment concerning Tim and his book. My words could have been seasoned with more grace and chosen more carefully.
The main question here raised is worth discussing from a biblical worldview and should be considered with sobriety of heart and mind: What qualifies one to speak for God and His Word?
I pray that many here dedicated to biblical ministry will continue to provide helpful and biblical responses to this question as I hope to do in the coming days as well.
To those who sought to use excessive vitriol against me for sport, I hold no ought against you. You wouldn't have been provoked to do so if my initial words were thought through more carefully.
HIs unworthy servant in His unfailing love,
Steve
2 Cor. 4:5-7
I have no idea who Steve Camp is, while I've at least read Challies work for a few years and have a general understanding of his viewpoint. Challies has a track record with me, wheras Steve Camp I don't know from Adam.
So my question is: What are