"The Discipline of Discernment"
114 comments | PermalinkHere are the blurbs:
"Tim Challies is one of the finest young evangelical thinkers of our day. He combines keen insight with theological maturity and spiritual depth. His weblog is required reading, and The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment should help form the Christian character of a new generation of evangelicals. Indeed, we must hope so."
—R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
"John Murray said, “The difference between truth and error is not a chasm but a razor’s edge.” Spurgeon said something like it too: “Discernment is not a matter of simply telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather, it is the difference between right and almost right.” Both these giants are emphasizing the vital quality (and difficulty) of discernment. Unfortunately, in our time—even among Christians—discernment is long in demand and short in supply. This is but one reason I’m so delighted to commend to you The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment. Tim reminds us that the Bible constantly commands us to cultivate discernment, but he doesn’t stop there. He tells us how, biblically."
—Ligon Duncan, senior minister, First Presbyterian Church, Jackson, Mississippi
"The many fans Tim Challies has won through his highly regarded blog will discover in this book the motivation that drives his incisive analysis of cultural events and trends—a keen respect for truth and a passionate commitment to biblical discernment."
—
“If you want to be discerning, you will buy this book. If you read it, you will be! Tim Challies has written on an important topic that is rarely addressed. This book on discernment is simple, clear, well-written, accurate and even insightful. I read it all. I liked it all. I will recommend it often. Ten short, pithy chapters—read one a day for ten days, and I you’ll find yourself more discerning—or at least wanting to be.”
—
"The path to most biblical graces is bordered with hazards on both sides. With the subject of this book—discernment—one can fall into the ditch of careless naiveté on the left or wander into the dark woods of a critical spirit on the right. Tim Challies carefully guides his reader between these dangers and on toward Christlike discernment. I’ve simply never read a more thorough, practical, and biblically sound treatment of this subject. Anyone wanting to study biblical discernment should not miss this book."
—Don Whitney, associate professor of biblical spirituality; senior associate dean, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
posted by JT at Wednesday, January 02, 2008
114 Comments:
Who is Tim Challies?
I pre-ordered, and Tim spent his Christmas vacation stuffing autographed copies into envelopes and mailing them.
Hope mine is in the mail today.
@ Don Moore
Tim Challies is the evangelical blogger from Challies Dot Com.
I received my two autographed copies today (one for my Pastor). I started it before scanning this blog. Seems like a winner. I'm going back to it now and hope to have it finished by tomorrow. God Bless Tim.
So being a blogger (no offense JT) is the mark of being an evangelical author?
I don't know if being a blogger is the mark of being an evangelical author, but I'm guessing that writing a book for an evangelical publishing house is qualification enough.
Tim Challies I know, but who is Don Moore?
I never meant any ill toward Tim Challies, I was just surprised that, as his website says, a web designing blogger now writes books on spiritual discernment. When did our pastors and bible teachers quit doing this and your laypeople assume the roll?
Don... right on dude!
I like TC's blog; but I guess if you live-blog at enough famous pastors Bible conferences then you can get endorsements from just about anyone :-).
Don,
I agree. I think it started when pastors decided to abandon their pulpits for political office.
Helen Wales
Anonymous said
"Don... right on dude!"
Hmmm. Has EVERY book on Theology and Christian Life ALWAYS been written ONLY by Pastors and Bible Teachers?
I remember reading an interchange on Tim's blog regarding global warming and Tim took the typical Christian conservative tack which some of his readers challenged. Eventually, Tim made the blanket statement that global warming is nothing more than a bunch of anti-God, anti-biblical scientists with an agenda. He may think differently now but I thought his response was very immature. It's interesting that he has now written a book about spiritual discernment.
Don and Anonymous
I wouldn't come down too hard on Tim; he's just trying to make his mark like all of us are and get his fifteen minutes of fame.
Here is a link to a very brief, yet biblical definition of what discernment really is by my friend, John MacArthur.
My only prayer for Tim is that he is young, theologically immature, and untested in handling God's Word. He also began writing this book by polling his own blog readers in helping him define what discernment is. That is a true sign of insecurity, lack of knowledge, and "a tell" that he really isn't well-versed on this subject.
I can't remember the last time any credible author solicited his audience a head of time for help on content as he/she was writing their tome.
I do wish Tim well with his efforts and hope the Lord blesses his tome.
As to endorsements: very few of these guys actually sit down and read through an entire book of any author they are asked to review. Most give a thumbs up through staff recommendations or because of friendship.
In the end, the tome must stand or fall on its own. I just hope that now his book is finally out, that he will pull down the endorsements from his own web page; I mean self-promotion does get old quick.
Have a great New Year's Week with your families... I am enjoying mine this vacation too.
Grace and peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14
Steve,
I usually make a practice of ignoring your comments, but do you see any irony in the fact that you cite "your friend" John MacArthur's definition of discernment, but MacArthur--who did indeed read the book--wrote that "Tim Challies is uniquely qualified to write on the subject. I don't know of a more reliable or more prolific commentator on the contemporary evangelical scene.... Tim obviously values clarity and biblical accuracy--and those qualities all come through in this excellent work as well."
I pray you'd read the book--and heed it. You're giving discernment a bad name.
Justin
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JT
I know that you ignore most comments on your blog, but it is good to see you interact at least from time to time.
I know what John said...
Grace and peace,
Steve
Justin,
nice burn!!!
but you've got to admit, Don has a point
Tim may very well be a great guy, but what beyond his blog, are his credentials?
how can evangelicals, myself included, allow people with no professional training or practice(education, pastoring, etc.) to write authoritatively on the subject we hold dearest?
Would a biologist stand for an accountant writing authoritatively on his field?
interesting, indeed!
To all you Tim-bashers.
What are your qualifications for judging his qualifications?
Sounds like a bit of jealousy to me!
Man. I come here to read what people are saying about the Challies juggernaut, and I find Justin Taylor speaking plainly to Steve Camp!
Challies may have actually started a revolution.
TeamPyro is on-deck for the Challies blog tour on Jan 16 with a mini-interview and an unadulterated endorsement of Tim's book. We look forward to having people reading books from guys like Challies, even if he won't admit to reading our blog.
:-)
Has anyone thought for a moment that blogging is how would be book writers reach today's generation who refuse to pick up a book?
In another time Challies may have started with books. Blogging is the influence of the day friends (as you all know). I would have no idea who Justin Taylor was if it weren't for his blog. Or Al Mohler or Phil Johnson, Dan Phillips, and many others.
Not that just having a blog qualifies you.
Another thing. . .Aren't we talking about God's truth? Found in the Bible? Available to all men? Do you need a degree to write a book on the truth of God's word? Really Chad, Challies isn't an accountant in a biologist's field. He is a Christian writing a Christian book.
The book stands or falls on whether it is faithful to God's word as all books do.
I know many books written by men who are "qualified" that fall well short of the Biblical standard of God's word (enter "What Love is This?") I am interested to see Challies book fares.
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For the nay sayers, btw, I have a little theory:
Let's say that we live in a world which, as Steve Camp would say, is in dire straits because in the church of Jesus Christ, people have sunk so low as to think that the music they hear of Christian Radio is actually a spiritual exercise. It's a world where discernment is frankly waning.
Enter a book from a highly-reputable publishing house which makes a point of publishing books at the popular level on the greatest questions of theology for this generation. That book received the highest marks from what can only be called some of the most faithful men of our generation, and it has all the earmarks of serious apologetic and didcatic writing -- a meaningful subject index, and a complete Scripture index, and well as what is frankly careful and sober exegetical handling of Scripture.
Here's the theory: in the world we have hypothesized, above, no one would be qualified especially from a series of endorsements to say the theoretical Challies is only sawdust, only irrelevant.
But even if Tim Challies were a man in a cell, convicted of a heinous crime, this book would be evidence that he has, at least, found the only Savior of men and the wisdom of the foundation of Moses, the prophets and apostles. Tim is instead a long-time commentator and writer on the topic of American Evangelicalism, and a friend to many of us in the blogoshpere.
Let's be clear: Tim's voice is very different than mine, and often I think he is too gentle and too subdued, too often seeking an elusive standard of "fairness". But anyone seeking to criticize Tim has to step over his work here without violating the principles this work expounds and demonstrates.
Good luck to you on that account. This work is classic Challies, and in that, it ought to be on your front book case, if not your top shelf.
Especially if you are a blogger.
the issue isn't qualification makes one worthy
the issue is how we determine legitimacy
sound education and proven experience?
or prolific blogging?
the legitimacy of theology is on the downgrade if our authoritative writers are chosen on the basis of e-popularity
" Winston said...
the issue isn't qualification makes one worthy"
Sorry, Winston, but that is the exact point of some on this blog - they are questioning the qualifications of Tim.
"don moore said...
I never meant any ill toward Tim Challies, I was just surprised that, as his website says, a web designing blogger now writes books on spiritual discernment. When did our pastors and bible teachers quit doing this and your laypeople assume the roll?"
"CS said...
I don't know if being a blogger is the mark of being an evangelical author, but I'm guessing that writing a book for an evangelical publishing house is qualification enough."
"Chad said...
Justin,
nice burn!!!
but you've got to admit, Don has a point Tim may very well be a great guy, but what beyond his blog, are his credentials?"
(BTW, those of you who are writing your opinions about Tim's writings might want to check your own use of grammar and syntax!)
Here are Tim's credentials according to the publisher:
"Tim Challies, a self-employed web designer, is a pioneer in the Christian blogosphere, having one of the most widely read and recognized Christian blogs. He is also editor of Discerning Reader, a site dedicated to offering thoughtful reviews of books that are of interest to Christians."
So if any of us start a blog and it gets lots of readers, can we get a book deal too?
Centurion
I like some of your thoughts here Frank in this comment - you are beginning to sound a lot like Campi :-).
But you do say this: That book received the highest marks from what can only be called some of the most faithful men of our generation,
You left out the fact that Tim has live-blogged for each of these guys at various conferences and thus there is a political element for their endorsement. But that's OK; and not uncommon. We all understand that men will sometimes bend over backwards like this for friends. That's cool.
But here is a question for you: I read awhile back on Tim's own blog that he considers discernment "a spiritual gift." Now where does Scripture ever refer that? No where. Why didn't Tim call his book "The Gift of Spiritual Discernment"? Because he knows it is something that is learned (a discipline), not a gift.
I agree with you we need discernment; but your endorsement of Tim doesn't mean a hill of beans or that you and other bloggers signed up for his blogging tour (whatever that means).
I really like how Winston put it here: the legitimacy of theology is on the downgrade if our authoritative writers are chosen on the basis of e-popularity."
Amen!
JT
Why do you ignore literally everyone on your blog who disagrees with you? Don, Chad, Anonymous and others here have asked some good questions - but you won't even give them the time of day.
So are you going to ignore me now too and say unkind things about me?
We all know that the only reason you published this book is that Tim's blog can produce sales. If he had the popularity of a much smaller blogger you wouldn't give this a second look.
We all get it -- we just want to hear you say you get it.
Bill
PS - Doug, no one is jealous; just being discerning. :-).
JT:
Welcome to the other side of the tracks, dude. There ain't nothin' meaner than a junk yard blogger.
__________
Bill (anonymous):
That is frankly the ugliest thing I have ever read anyone ever say about someone else's pastor -- and you have just said it about many pastors who have a history of Godly discernment and pastoral care. Nice work -- you are obviously someone who should read Tim's book.
I am about to chat with a ECMer at DebateBlog on the question of doctrine and practice, and when I am finished with him, I invite you to join me in an exchange on this thesis:
Unresolved slander or libel is a sin which disqualifies one from fellowship with other believers, including participation at the Lord's table.
I would take the affirmative.
I heard once that the author of Pilgrim's Progress was a tinker.
JT - Don't you think you give discernment a bad name when you give wholehearted endorsements to people like Douglas Wilson and his Federal Visionism, or Mark Driscoll and his Vintage Emerging Faith, or political candidates, but yet, you don't ever explain why, and when people challenge you, you choose to ignore everyone and their questions, except of course for your occaisional cheap shot at Steve Camp.
This not only lacks discernment, but integrity as well.
This is very unfortunate.
Winston is right when he said -
"the legitimacy of theology is on the downgrade if our authoritative writers are chosen on the basis of e-popularity." Therefore JT, as Tim's publisher, what do you think Tim's biblical credentials are for writing authoritatively about such a heavy subject as discernment?
Jeanne
"That is frankly the ugliest thing I have ever read anyone ever say about someone else's pastor"
Frank,
you show your greatest discernment when you refrain from speaking.
Helen
Frank,
"Unresolved slander or libel is a sin which disqualifies one from fellowship with other believers, including participation at the Lord's table" you must know that this is not even remotely biblical. The only sin anyone is disfellowshipped for and denied the Lord's table is the sin of unrepentance. When a fellow Christian is properly and biblically walked through church discipline (Matt. 18:15-20; Gal. 6:1-4) and remain hardened in their sin, then and then only are they put out of the church.
It's not "unresolved slander or libel", it's unrepentant slander or libel. But then again, if you were a discerning blogger, you would have known that already.
BTW, does this standard apply to you and`the other Pyromaniacs?
Physician, heal thyself.
Game. Set. Match.
Helen
For everyone questioning the "credentials" of Tim you better throw away any Tozer books you may have read in your life. Since he was minus a seminary education of any kind. And I say all of this as a seminary student who does not agree with Tim that often but have recognized his gift for writing and incredible diligence in personal study and learning.
I love Helen and all her e-mailing friends.
BTW, Helen, the invite to D-blog my thesis is open to you, too.
Jeanne: We don't know each other but please read Mark Driscoll's chapter in the book JT edited with John Piper (The Supremacy of God in a Postmodern World) and then tell me that Driscoll is part of a "Vintage Emerging Faith". I'm throughly Reformed and I got turned onto Driscoll from this blog. I watch a Driscoll sermon every week on my iPhone. He may not be ordained but he's Reformed through and through. Mars Hill itself may be a bit unorthodox on a Reformed scale but so is Seattle.
As far as Tim Challies' qualifications go, I wonder how many of the nay-sayers on this blog, have travelled to and participated in as many Reformed seminars as Tim has. That on top of his uncanny ability to write consistently well and a prolific reading rate (despite raising a young family and maintaining employment) seems to foot the bill.
Tim knows the Gospel. Read the book. I'm 1/3 of the way through it. It's, no doubt, a first book but I see it as a great study guide for young adult groups.
You are all missing it! If you really had discernment you'd see that Ron Paul is the man our country needs! Forget Tim Challies! Forget Steve Camp! Ron Paul! Ron Paul!
—Power Recommended
Helen: "BTW, does this standard apply to you and`the other Pyromaniacs?"
Yes, it does.
What are you talking about? People sometimes accuse us of being too mean-spirited, too light-hearted, too sarcastic, too precise, too hard to understand, too sure of our opinions, too concerned with extrabiblical issues, and too narrowly focused on Scripture. But I can't recall that anyone ever has accused us of "slander."
Have you got a concrete example you want to point out, or was that just a slap-shot from the opposite end of the arena?
Note to JT:
I replied to your e-mail, but Crossway classifies me as "spam" which the IT department has to review -- which is bizarre because I've been trading e-mails with Michelle (Challies' PR person) for a month now.
(sigh) They are probably right, but if you can fish my e-mail out of the filter it's good for a laugh.
To the nay-sayers:
Have you read the book? Find within its pages things that detract from the Gospel, find things that are error. You say he is not qualified to write on this, is God given wisdom and discernment only for the scholars? If what he has written is Biblical (and I find that it is, but who am I...just a layperson) then what matter is it what his day job is?
"The book stands or falls on whether it is faithful to God's word as all books do."
Exactly.
Bill
"You left out the fact that Tim has live-blogged for each of these guys at various conferences and thus there is a political element for their endorsement. But that's OK; and not uncommon. We all understand that men will sometimes bend over backwards like this for friends. That's cool."
I dare say you've just implied that the men who endorsed his book have no interest in being sure that Tim produces solid, Biblical teaching...that they lack the integrity to refuse to endorse something that is unscriptural for the sake of offending their friends? Amazing.
"But here is a question for you: I read awhile back on Tim's own blog that he considers discernment "a spiritual gift." Now where does Scripture ever refer that? No where. Why didn't Tim call his book "The Gift of Spiritual Discernment"? Because he knows it is something that is learned (a discipline), not a gift."
Is spiritual discernment something that can be learned outside and apart from God's grace? If not, then it is a gift of God.
Mira ese --
I was gonna riff on this appearance of the Steve Camp fan club, but I just took in Crossway's banner ad for Challies' biblia ... otra ves -- "a book, eh?"
¡Antes que te cases mira lo que haces!
JT
First of all congratulations on a huge Huckabee win this evening in Iowa. This helped McCain in N.H. too. But on to the issue of this thread.
Secondly, the issue that so many are asking on this thread, that still goes ignored by you, is legitimate: what qualifies someone to speak for God and His Word? What credentials are necessary in representing the Lord and His truth in the public arena? As Don Moore said, "When did our pastors and bible teachers quit doing this and your laypeople assume the roll?"
Important questions.
Thirdly, blogging has afforded anyone with a computer today to be "in the game" and a potential voice for change on a myriad of issues from faith to family to culture to politics. It is the great leveler of the playing field in today's world. Unnerving, to be sure, for old media adherents.
Fourthly, in this e-arena we know that some blogs will become more popular and read than others and thus carry a greater influence in their chosen sphere as well. Over time, each blog slowly takes on a personality of their own. With that influence comes opportunity; and with opportunity comes responsibility. I think Winston's comment bears repeating here. It is especially profound on this matter: "the legitimacy of theology is on the downgrade if our authoritative writers are chosen on the basis of e-popularity."
I agree wholeheartedly with his words.
On to the question: what qualifies someone to speak for God and His Word? Is it the popularity of a blogger that gives that authority? Is it the various endorsements from gifted men of God we love and respect that creates the credentials?
I don't think so.
What is the answer? I believe it is the leadership of the local church.
The one missing name and voice in regards to Tim's book among many fine names are his pastors and church. (I do realize they might be included in the book, and I don’t mean on a thank you list, but I haven’t received my copy yet.) I think it would be a tremendous signal to others to have ones pastor write the forward of the book and the leadership (elders) of his church as a body collectively endorse this tome visibly and be publicly featured more so than any other names. Why? Because under God and the command of His Word they are the ones who will have to give an account for how they have kept watch over our souls (Heb. 13:17).
Fifthly, anyone in ministry (local church, itinerant, internet, publishing, music, etc.) should be part of a local church and accountable to its leadership. In an age of unbridled media and content, such as the blogosphere affords itself, what a great protection and standard to have ones own work affirmed (and I don't just mean ceremoniously but in actuality) and governed by the leadership of ones church over the materials produced by its membership for the marketplace. Churches used to do this with its music in the hymnal. And part of the process wasn't just to give an endorsement upon the finished product, but to be intimately involved in the formation of those materials as well. It was even stamped upon the hymnal with language that went something like, “the elders at First Presb. Church affirm the contents of this hymnal as being profitable for public use in the worship of the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Tim's book might be biblically solid, theologically sound, and profitable for godliness, etc. Again, I wish him well with what ever success the Lord grace's him with. But in spite of Tim's lack of formal training, theological or doctrinal acumen, or youthfulness, to have the full weight endorsement from the leadership of his church officially sign off on the doctrinal clarity and biblical soundness of his book would be profound. I’m sure they have done so if not formally, individually. But to have that publicly stamped on his work would be a powerful statement in our day. And part of that approval would be to have Tim, or any author, tested on the essentials of the faith and his ability to rightly divide the word of truth under their scrutiny as one approved by God and unashamed as a workman.
Bookstores aren't discerning for they will take whatever will sell regardless of theological content. Publishers aren't discerning for they primarily want to produce whatever the consumer driven market will support.
But the local church is different. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth. It's concerns are heavenly: to proclaim truth, to bring every man to maturity in Christ, to hold people accountable to the truth, to contend for the truth, to worship in spirit and in truth, etc. Therefore, the greatest endorsement and approval any author could enjoy is the wholehearted approval of his or her eldership on the content and substance of their books, CD's, blogs, etc. This is a stewardship and a trust given to them by God. It is a trust to be guarded.
This also serves as a testimony to others of the importance of the covering and accountability the local church should have with its membership that may be involved in ministering to others in the public marketplace about the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word.
IMHO, I believe that they are all the credentials our brother needs to speak faithfully and biblically in any book he may pen. And that endorsement should always be respected.
Thank you for listening...
Grace and peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14
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Steve Camp wrote:
“The one missing name and voice in regards to Tim's book among many fine names are his pastors and church...”
I fully endorse Tim’s book. More than that, I fully endorse Tim’s life. He is a faithful, encouraging, serving, accountable, “normal,” giving member of our church.
Paul Martin
Pastor
Grace Fellowship Church, Toronto
www.gfcto.com
P.S. I also really read the book... and really liked it! Just like the other (published) endorsers read it and liked it... whose names help establish a first-time author a lot more than mine does! :-)
Steve,
Your elevation of church leadership to the Imprimatur Committee for one's books is totally unbiblical.
By that standard, Brian McClaren's, N.T. Wright's, and Benny Hinn's books might be "acceptable", while Martin Luther's would not.
Your calling church leadership a "covering" is just New Apostolic cultic lingo for the unbiblical concept that church leadership should control you. You may not mean it that way, but I'd be real careful. Part of discernment is discerning how we relate biblically to church leadership.
To all,
1. I read LOTS of books, and can't remember ever agreeing with any book 100%.
I would be a terrible book store owner, because I would only have a few volumes I would dare to let everyone read, and then I'd want to spend a half hour pointing out to customers where a book deviates from my understanding of Scripture.
I would want to do everyone's discerning for them.
Having said that, I received my copy of Tim's book and would highly recommend it. He has put his heart and his brain into it. It wastes no words, and is wonderful.
2. Where does sola scriptura go when people start talking about "credentials"? What a ridiculous unbiblical concept.
Some of the most "credentialed" men in theology are heretics, and my 4 ft. 11 in. little grandma with her KJV had more biblical knowledge and discernment than many "scholars" I read.
I'm not knocking scholarship, but it is attained in many ways, not the least of which is in researching and writing Bible-based books, which should be judged with discernment on their own merits, not on the degrees of the author, nor the Imprimatur of his elder board.
Julian's comment about the Tinker who wrote Pilgrim's Progress is right on, and lest anyone say, "That was just a fictional allegoy," that tinker wrote some pretty heavy theology books, too.
3. Finally, I love marketing. I am a marketer.
Marketing is morally and biblically neutral. It, like a hammer, can be used for good or evil. Marxist thinking has so permeated our society that we often think marketing is automatically bad. It isn't.
Blessings,
Terry
Challies responds. challies.com
Should I not attend a Sunday school class taught by a godly and knowledgable lay person who wasn't trained in seminary?
rick
Don,
First, it's "role", not "roll". And Bible should be capitalized. I'm assuming you are a pastor, based on the clergy-oriented nature of your comment. Maybe lay people have to do the work because the clergy are too lazy to pay attention to quality of output.
Second, your comment is offensive to lay people everywhere, who are every bit as qualified and authorized to teach as you are. We are for more than paying your salary, dude.
I wouldn't come down too hard on Tim; he's just trying to make his mark like all of us are and get his fifteen minutes of fame.
Is that sarcasm Steve? You know, the issue with which you stated your repentence?
My friend, John MacArthur.
A bit of name dropping?
My only prayer for Tim is that he is young, theologically immature, and untested in handling God's Word. He also began writing this book by polling his own blog readers in helping him define what discernment is. That is a true sign of insecurity, lack of knowledge, and "a tell" that he really isn't well-versed on this subject.
Wow. A bit harsh don't you think. How do you know these things about Tim? Have you ever met him or conversed with him? Have you contacted his pastor before making these assumptions? Remember Paul when writing another Tim stated, "Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity."
I can't remember the last time any credible author solicited his audience a head of time for help on content as he/she was writing their tome.
So what. Does this disqualify a writer?
I do wish Tim well with his efforts and hope the Lord blesses his tome.
You speak out of both sides of your mouth.
I mean self-promotion does get old quick.
Of course, you don't engage in any self-promotion, right Steve?
I wonder when you will see that you really tear down other Christians with unqualified statements and self-righteous judgements. It is like you have a streak of jealousy or something. I would really love to see you write something that shows a bit of sincere humility and genuine encouragement instead of arrogance towards other Christians trying to be faithful and obedient to what God has called them to.
Otherwise: Good point Julian, about John Bunyan being a tinker.
It's so nice to see the brethren getting alone in such a peaceful Godly fashion.
And golly, how about that Apostle Peter and all his diplomas? So much for perspicuity.
candyinsierras,
Bunyan was a pastor, right?
sounds like credentials to me
josh,
Peter walked/lived with Jesus, right?
sounds like credentials to me
Steve,
I really USED to respect you. Maybe you should try reading the book before you speak about it and it's author. Maybe you should re-read James 1:19 and be a little slower to speak.
Jason
Why are people so focused on the character of the author rather than the content of what was written?
Whether or not Tim actually should have written the book seems to be a question that few here should really be attempting to answer.
The real question should be, is what is written in line with Biblical truth? All truth is eternal and based on the character of God alone. We may find God's truth in the words or writings of a learned scholar or we may find it in the bumblings of an uneducated fool (by worldly standards) who knows God more than many who in our day who claim to be shepherds of God's people.
hmmm... so Steve Camp wants to attack Challies' book because Challies is just a blogger.
And somehow Camp's being a musician gives him the credentials and credibility to attack such a thing?
Interesting...
I am not a big Challies' fan. Him and I are quite different in our theology and ideologies.
But to attack the book because he doesn't have proper qualifications is silly. Are you all part of the Catholic church now? Whatever happened to the priesthood of all believers?
Why are people so focused on the character of the author rather than the content of what was written?
They are aren't even attacking his character. Well... not quite true, a few are. And Steve Camp did very well at attacking Challies' character by claiming he is just trying to get his "15 minutes of fame."
But for the most part they are not attacking his character. They are attacking something as silly as whether or not he has the proper qualifications.
By the way... Steve Camp sings "theology" in his music. Is he really qualified to sing about theology?
I am not even sure if he is qualified to blog about it...
Actually Steve. I think you owe Tim Challies a public apology.
Stephen H.: John Bunyon had very little formal education. He began to preach and was noticed for his ability and gift to do so.
Spurgeon had no seminary training and began preaching as a young man. He was noticed for his ability and gift to do so.
If I think hard enough, I am sure I can find many examples of lay people who have written great books or gone on to be pastors and teachers without the "proper" credentials.
Why would anyone despise a work of God in somebody's life, used to edify the Body of Christ, because they are just beginning to grow in that area? We should be encouraging each other in the gifts that God has bestowed upon us instead of finding fault.
Candy
Your words are not helpful to anyone here and usually I avoid them.
But the issue is simple: what gives someone the ability to speak for God? That has been asked here many times with JT still being silent and others like you avoiding it.
Steve said the obvious that many of us didn't have the courage to say. Don't shoot him - he's only a piano player :-).
I like Tim's blog and some of his writings. But come on, Tim is a big boy and if he can't handle a little criticism he shouldn't be an author.
What I do find interesting is that you don't see your flippant sarcastic tone as a problem.
From one woman to another - better part of wisdom would be to be quiet.
Shelly
Stop minimizing his being "just a blogger" as if that is inherently useless. A poor blogger, or an unwise one, or one with no truth to tell, is soon unsubscribed out of existence.
You can gain the kind of credibility being discussed here in two ways:
First, you can study and earn a degree or a position of importance. The letters after your name or your job title can lead us to trust your opinion because inherent in them is the assumption that you managed to convince a large number of wise, knowledgeable people that you know what you are talking about. We trust that if they were satisfied, we can be too. It's trust by proxy.
But for a Christian blogger to build a reputation and a readership as Tim Challies has, he has to have shown a long history of writing wise, insightful, scripturally valid material. That history is his credentials. You know a tree by its fruit. It's trust built first-hand.
He's not popular merely because he writes a lot (which has been implied in comments here). He's popular because he writes consistently useful and challenging material.
What better credentials are there?
I can't help but notice the many parting shots left that often apply to the writer as much as it does to the reader. The better part of wisdom for all of us is to be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. I'm thankful that God does not deal with us in the manner Christians often deal with one another.
In regard to Tim Challies' writing a book- J.I. Packer said in Knowing God that the average sermon hearer and Bible reader who is filled with the Holy Spirit will have a better knowledge and understanding of his God and Savior than the seminary trained theologian who is more concerned with being "theologically correct" (paraphrase). Praise God that He uses individuals on the basis of His calling and empowering rather than our abilities or worthiness. The disciples are the quintessential example of common, untrained men whose only qualification was that they were called by Christ. Speaking as a pastor, pastors do not have an innate quality or mark of worthiness whereby we can preach, teach, write, blog, encourage, etc... These are gifts from God to be used for His glory and for the building up of His church. I don't begrudge Tim his blog or his book, and I pray that our God will use it to help us (the Church) become more discerning.
Furthermore, I lament the nature of both driving and blogging in that they remove any personality from those around us. People aren't people- they are cars (when driving) or faceless comments (on the web). However, believers will be held accountable for every idle word, and that includes our comments on blogs. My fear is that many comments I leave and that I read from others aren't idle- they are much worse in that they are very much on purpose. Reminder to myself and others- may our words be seasoned with salt, and be profitable for building one another up and drawing attention to our great God, even when we disagree.
Joyfully His,
Aaron
Thank you Aaron,
I think that if people are going to slam Tim Challies book they should at least read it first...I highly respect him and can't wait to read his book! Because he is not a pastor does that mean that he cannot understand and write about what the bible teaches?
I am surprised by this thread and by some people who I thought were above this sort of thing.
Let the man write a book.
Read the book.
Give it some thought and some prayer.
Then let the mud fly if need be.
But please don’t stoop to attacking the author or his endorsers or his publisher or his critics without checking your own bias and carnality
Let us be humble.
Let us speak in love as brothers and sisters.
Led us guard the faith and the faithful.
Forgive me if I am out line. And may those who have written to score points or who now see their error apologize too.
May this divisive thread be turned around so that Tim and Justin and Steve and others are held in honor and their spiritual giftedness is not further tarnished.
Aaron, beautiful reply to the question of qualifications that Shelly demanded an answer for: But the issue is simple: what gives someone the ability to speak for God? That has been asked here many times with JT still being silent and others like you avoiding it.
In short, the answer is the Bible. Proving the need for a book such as Tim's. Anyone with credentials or not can write a book, it is up to each of us to discern whether it is Biblical or not. Dismissing a book simply because the author is apparently untrained is quite undiscerning.
For those who want more of Tim's credentials, read much of what he writes on his websites (challies.com) and (discerningreader.com) and read his book reviews on Amazon.com. Tim has read and reviewed hundreds of books more than many of us have known existed. Tim doesn't need defending (as he has shown he isn't too concerned about the negative comments about him), but there are many unbiblical comments about qualifications to being a teacher that need to be and have been addressed.
"as he has shown he isn't too concerned about the negative comments about him"
No? Then why did make an entire post out of it?
Why are reasonable questions and concerns instantly interpreted as malice toward Tim?
I’m on the side of the ‘questioners’, but don’t question Tim’s motives or character at all.
Lets not let immaturity over someone questioning “your boy” make us jump to rash ‘i’ve got your back’ conclusions.
if steve camp takes the guttersnipe route, so be it
God bless Tim C.
Who is Steve Camp?
I like Tim's blog and some of his writings. But come on, Tim is a big boy and if he can't handle a little criticism he shouldn't be an author.
It is ok for someone to critique Tim's book, and I am sure he can handle a critique just fine. What is not ok is to criticize and make assumptions about Tim's character, qualifications, and motivations for writing a book.
I agree that I am not exactly an example of graciousness or wisdom, but Steve Camp is also a big boy and should be able to handle someone telling him that maybe he needs to be an encouragement to others of the reformed faith instead of a self proclaimed Reformed Blog Policeman.
He wrote a blog post about it to discuss the credibility of the endorsers, not himself.
This whole discussion reminds me of trying to find a new job out of college. Most places won't hire you because you have no experience. How are you supposed to get experience if nobody hires you? Let the guy write a book and don't judge it by its author, but by its contents.
I haven't interpreted any comments as malice toward Tim. It's fine to ask questions (its part of discernment), but they haven't been relevant. What I am saying is, "Who cares who the author is? Read the book and comment on its contents. Compare it to the Bible and discuss if its accurate."
I must say I am a little saddened and disappointed by the total lack of grace displayed by some people here (to my surprise started to a great extent by Steve Camp). Most of you are speaking about a person you don't know personally, and a book you most likely haven't read. Let's show a little more grace to a brother in Christ and not be so quick to judge.
Anonymous at 1/04/2008 1:37pm said...
""as he has shown he isn't too concerned about the negative comments about him"
No? Then why did make an entire post out of it?"
Obviously you did not actually read Tim's post as even the title "Endorsing the Endorsers" makes clear, what bothered him was how those who endorsed his book were being impugned with less that honest motives or with not having read the book themselves. He was seeking to point out that was not the case at all. So, his motive and the primary focus of his response was to defend those who endorsed his book from the comments given here.
I have not read his book yet, but the whole question of his qualifications is down right silly. I have a Masters of Divinity, but I know that Tim has read much more than I have, and it shows in his writing.
Furthermore, what is with this "pastors only should teach" line of thinking. What happened to the priesthood of all believers? What happened to the Spirit indwelling all believers? I realize this is probably an overreaction to some of the wackos out there, but all it takes is some reading at Tim's blog to see he seeks to stay true to Scripture as well as he can. That is much better than many people who have the title of reverend or pastor out there who are writing books that question the veracity, sufficiency and source of Scripture and instead give out man made philosophies that lead only to death.
Read the book. Then if you don't like it, let your comments fly. Until then remember everyone has to start somewhere. Not one of the writers, pastors, theologians, etc started with all they now have to their name.
Finally, Steve, brother, I held you in high esteem until I read your comments here. I encourage you to repent and seek forgiveness for such unwise words.
Ok, let's see. According to Camp:
a. Having endorsements on your own webpage = "self-promotion."
b. Self-promotion "gets old quick."
c. Steve Camp has this on his webpage: "John MacArthur once introduced me at Grace Community Church as: "Keith Green with theology."
Therefore...
d. Steve Camp is getting old really quick.
:-)
Steve, I'll be checking to make sure you drop that endorsement from your page.
Sincerely,
A reader who never contributes to these kinds of things but just couldn't resist!
I'll say the same thing here I said over at Challies:
All of you - critics AND supporters - are doing nothing but swatting the air. If you really want to say something of meaning or lasting value, then address what Tim has written, for that is what matters.
This kind of thing is why we look so idiotic to the world sometimes.
Pheh!
To All
I want to publicly ask forgiveness for my initial comment concerning Tim and his book. My words could have been seasoned with more grace and chosen more carefully.
The main question here raised is worth discussing from a biblical worldview and should be considered with sobriety of heart and mind: What qualifies one to speak for God and His Word?
I pray that many here dedicated to biblical ministry will continue to provide helpful and biblical responses to this question as I hope to do in the coming days as well.
To those who sought to use excessive vitriol against me for sport, I hold no ought against you. You wouldn't have been provoked to do so if my initial words were thought through more carefully.
HIs unworthy servant in His unfailing love,
Steve
2 Cor. 4:5-7
I have no idea who Steve Camp is, while I've at least read Challies work for a few years and have a general understanding of his viewpoint. Challies has a track record with me, wheras Steve Camp I don't know from Adam.
So my question is: What are Steve Camp's "credentials" for doing just the thing he seems to be criticizing Challies for?
Steve asks, "What qualifies one to speak for God and His Word?" Good question. Let's start with you, Steve. What qualifies you? At the very least you ought to offer your credentials if you're going to demand them from others. As for me, I'll hear out any good Christian man of good Christian repute who is in good standing and approved by his church, and with the aid of the Holy Spirit compare his words with Scripture, holding fast to that which is true. The demand for "credentials" strikes me as a bit popish.
WOW.
Kudos to Steve Camp for doing the right thing.
An earlier comment:
...how can evangelicals, myself included, allow people with no professional training or practice(education, pastoring, etc.) to write authoritatively on the subject we hold dearest?
(Followed by similar comments.)
1. Since when did anyone need permission from others to write a book?
2. A seminary degree and experience in the pastorate (I have an MDiv and 18 years in the pastorate) do not necessarily qualify one to write on any particular spiritual topic.
3. Have you seen some of the tripe that comes out of some "evangelical" publishers? (Thomas Nelson was going to publish a tome on "parenting" by Brittney Spears mom! Need I say "Joel Osteen"?)
4. This book, just like any other, will stand or fall based on its own merits. I, for one, look forward to reading it (mine arrived two days ago). Will I agree with it 100%? Probably not, since I don't agree with any human author competely. However, I look forward to being challenged and edified.
Let me add a #2a to my above post:
As a Baptist, I believe in the "Priesthood of the Believer". In my view, distinction between "clergy" and "laity" is way over-blown. (You more liturgical types are free to disagree.)
It is great to see "just a mere layperson" exercise their spiritual gifts to the benefit of the church.
I want to publicly ask forgiveness .... My words could have been seasoned with more grace and chosen more carefully.
To paraphrase someone famous:
...and you think his own, self-aggrandized words about speaking graciously are authentic?
Forgiveness is certainly available. But the believability ship sailed a LONG time ago, Steve.
I find it odd that people are looking for worldly qualifications of the author and posting disparaging comments about Tim Challies and other posters on this blog. If your looking for books only written by pastors and "bible teachers" (which is a really broad term), you miss out on a lot. I have not read the book, and I can not truly endorse the book nor Challies and his blog (though I do enjoy it). But a man wrote a book about a pressing topic, which I see few others out there on this, the only that comes to mind is John MacArthur's "Think Biblically." It is a shame that so many people can argue so much before reading the book about whether he should be writing it and it would be much more helpful to the cause of evangelism and the edification of the body if you bought the book and read it before you posted such disparaging comments and argued so much about it.
Has anyone noticed how mind-blowingly gracious Challies was about all this? When he wrote a response to Camp's screed, in the face of some absolutely vile and slanderous accusations against him, he went to the defense of others who were not defamed nearly as badly.
I certainly hope that I'm that "immature" some day.
Steve you could have said this much earlier. You unwittingly opened a can of worms
I want to publicly ask forgiveness for my initial comment concerning Tim and his book. My words could have been seasoned with more grace and chosen more car.
Some of the comments show how unloving we can be.
It seems insane that some have argued that you should be a pastor or Bible scholar to write such a book. Are "lay people" supposed to just sit and soak in what pastors say or study for themselves. Read the book. Then make up your mind.
I do not know if this book is good or not. I will determine that once I buy it and read it. I have but briefly heard of Tim Challies, but I will be reading his blog more regularly now.
This entire comment section is absolute nonsense.
This blog would be well served if JT removed comments altogether.
Steve, thank-you for your statement concerning your earlier comment about Tim. However, now I have to comment about other commenter response to your statement. People, Brendt particularly, who are you to judge the credibility of Steve's repentance?
Your response about credibility sailing long ago shows a heart that is unforgiving and a tendency to think you can judge Steve's motives which you cannot. Please do not do that.
Take Steve's statement in the best light not the worst light. Take it as meaning what it says and don't try to judge motives. Follow the directions Jesus gave in Matthew 18, "Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven." and Luke 17:3-4, "Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."
Those who questioned the sincerity of Steve's retraction need to repent themselves.
It sounds like we all need to do a little reading from James 4. This is why I can't stand blogging...great for the info...pathetic for the pious rhetoric...humility folks...humility
Having been a fan of Steve Camp's for a very long time, I was saddened to read this dialogue. While I'm glad an "apology" was given -- it appears the extent of the apology was just for the words that were used. It doesn't appear there was an apology for the thrust of the message delivered.
Steve then returns to what he considers the crux of the matter. He writes, "The main question here raised is worth discussing from a biblical worldview and should be considered with sobriety of heart and mind: What qualifies one to speak for God and His Word?"
If you read the first chapter in "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer, there is a quote from a sermon that Spurgeon delivered on January 7, 1855. Spurgeon was only 20 years old.
Steve -- was Spurgeon qualified to speak for God and His Word at age 20??? A simple yes or no would suffice.
I invited Tim to speak at our Church when he was in Chattanooga blogging for a youth conference. He did a good job in presenting his case for spiritual discernment and also did an excellent job fielding questions from the audience.
One of the reasons I had Tim present his book was to encourage other “lay people” to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 3:18) to the point where they would be teachers in their sphere of influence (Heb 5:12).
Tim is a good example of what Christians should be like. By reading his blog one can tell that he spends a lot of time reading the Word of God and a lot of time reading good books.
The church would be blessed to have more laymen that were equipped to do the work of the ministry (Eph 4:11).
2 Timothy 2:2 (NKJV) And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
I'm not sure what I would give for my congregation members to possess the passion, diligence, insight, wisdom, understanding, clarity, wherewithall, humility, etc. that Challies has exhibited not only in his book but over the 2-3 years I've been reading his blog. I've enjoyed the two meals we've shared together and the countless email.
As a pastor, I understand the importance of authority, preparation, and qualification. There will always be a need for preachers. At the same time, the role of the pastor is to equip the saints not promote or instill their dependency upon me. It seems to me that Tim's pastor is doing a good job of equipping.
I take my children to our family doctor not an accountant to diagnose and treat their ailments. At the same time, over the 13 years I have been a parent, I have learned to identify symptoms, diagnose certain maladies, and then treat them without calling Lance (our doctor). It not only saves me a co-pay, but it also serves as an exercise of the stewardship of wisdom and understanding that I have acquired over the years that benefits me and Lance who can spend the time he would have taken to see my children with other children.
What good does it do us to acquire wisdom, which we're commanded to in the Scripture if we never exercise it? And is it really wisdom if we don't?
It seems to me that Tim has taken on the challenge of writing about a discipline that has resulted in a book that can serve as it's own object lesson. Our job is to read his book with the Bible alongside and see what is true and what is not. I don't think Tim would expect anything less. Our job isn't to determine whether or not he's qualified. In the end, none of us are truly qualified to do what we do.
Press on Tim!
Rileysowner,
I agree that we should not judge the motives of any mans heart. I agree that we should accept apologies and suffer for doing so if need be because we are called to forgive and be merciful as God is merciful to us.
But I don't know if you clicked the link that Brendt made in his comments. He points out that there may be some other things that Mr. Camp needs to make apology for. And, perhaps, that Mr. Camp's penchant for and frequency of starting and participating in e-arguments is an unfruitful behavior, and that apologizing for this instance will not suffice as an apology for other ungracious and un-Christlike exchanges in the past, nor for Steve's own ungraciousness in the face of the apologies of others.
That point is well made in my estimation, however, it is thoroughly not Christlike to fail to forgive Mr. Camp OR to second guess his motives. We should watch his actions. Now and in the future.
I am thankful that Steve is here and that he has apologized. May God bless you and your ministry Steve, and continue to teach and grow his children till that day when we will all be changed.
Ronk
Steve S. said:
"Let us be humble.Let us speak in love as brothers and sisters. Led us guard the faith and the faithful. Forgive me if I am out line. And may those who have written to score points or who now see their error apologize too. May this divisive thread be turned around so that Tim and Justin and Steve and others are held in honor and their spiritual giftedness is not further tarnished."
After reading through all the comments here, yours is the one that I keep coming back to. Thank you for extending such grace in an otherwise very disturbing comment thread. Our Lord preached in the sermon on the mount "blessed are the peacemakers" and this is a wonderful example of just that. Your comment blessed me, and I appreciate it.
SJ Camp said:
"To All I want to publicly ask forgiveness for my initial comment concerning Tim and his book. My words could have been seasoned with more grace and chosen more carefully."
Apologizing for lack of grace is never an easy thing to do (especially when you're not sure it will be received graciously), privately or publicly, so I do appreciate seeing this.
As I read through the comments here, it occured to me that maybe Tim's book on discernment is probably much more needed than maybe most of us ever gave thought to? I know both Tim and Steve, and they're both good brothers, with a true hearts for the Lord. Both have faults to be sure, and both still growing in grace (just like the rest of us).
If I were the author of this book, I'd be crushed to see this type of hurtful activity in my "defense" - but that's me. I haven't read the book but I hope those that are so quick to defend Tim with angry words will be richly blessed by the content and would remember to be as quick to extend grace and forgiveness, as we all are (myself included) to fire off such malicious words that are designed to hurt (no matter who they're aimed at).
For our Lord's sake (and Tim's and Steve's and even our own), I humbly implore you folks who have been posting such hurtful words in one breath, then support and praise in another, to let it not be so, as James 3:10 says. Its certainly not edified anyone, and has just been grievous to read.
For what it's worth...
Soli Deo Gloria,
Carla Rolfe
Sounds like Steve is sticking to his guns about what he said, but only apoligizing about how he said it.
God can use anyone he wants. A seminary degree is not a requirement. Throughout the Scriptures God grabs those who do not have "credentials" to do His work through them. He loves to use the weak, rather than the accomplished, to show His glory.
My jaw is on the floor that we would say that the only ones who can preach, teach, and write are the uber-trained and processed individuals. Enough of professional Christians! Our calling is to operate in the Spirit under the direction of the Word. Enough of Pharisaical christianity, that thinks they know who's useful to God and who isn't! Wasn't Rome that kept the Scriptures out of the hands of the people because "they couldn't understand it...only the priveleged few could."
Tim Challies should not in anyway feel any guilt that he has put his heart to the page.
God has throughout time proven othat he uses the weak to confound the strong.
Rileysowner said: People, Brendt particularly, who are you to judge the credibility of Steve's repentance?
Oh, that's an easy one. I'm somebody who has read Matthew 18:23-35.
If you had clicked the link that I gave in my comment, you would have seen Steve judging the credibility of Mark's repentance.
Rileysowner said: Your response about credibility sailing long ago shows a heart that is unforgiving ...
Actually, no it doesn't. FWIW, I have forgiven Steve for slandering a friend of mine. But, that doesn't require that I buy into the sincerity of the apology.
Rileysowner said: Your response ... shows ... a tendency to think you can judge Steve's motives which you cannot. Please do not do that.
You apparently haven't been it this corner of the web very long if you don't see the cosmic laughability of defending Steve Camp against others who supposedly judge his inner motives. Doing that to other people is his stock-in-trade.
To be honest, I personally believe that Steve's apology was sincere. But to call it generally credible would be to deny a LOT of history.
I think we should listen to what Carla has said here and put it into practice. This thread is sad.
Brendt
Your words are not edifying.
On one hand you say, "I have forgiven Steve for slandering a friend of mine. But, that doesn't require that I buy into the sincerity of the apology.
And then you say, "To be honest, I personally believe that Steve's apology was sincere"
Double talk.
A lot of bloggers are concerned about Driscoll's way of doing ministry - not just Steve.
Brendt: he has apologized. Let's accept that and move on. I just can't believe the venom being displayed here and I can't believe that Tim would approve either.
Anonymous:
Your words are not edifying.
If you think that what I wrote is double-talk, then you know very little about forgiveness (or you mis-read what I said).
* I said that I forgive Steve.
* I said that I believed that his apology was sincere.
* I said that my forgiveness did not REQUIRE that I believe the sincerity.
Forgiveness does not even REQUIRE that the offender apologize, let alone that he do so sincerely, let alone that the sincerity is believed by the forgiver.
...he has apologized. Let's accept that and move on.
You're directing this admonition to the wrong person. I'm not the one who described someone else's apology as self-aggrandizing and unauthetic.
This has been a very thought-provoking conversation. I have walked around my bookshelves to remind myself of the spiritual books other than the Scriptures that have most inspired, taught,
encouraged and admonished me, and
of their authors.
I owe a very great debt to
Madeleine L'Engle, T.S.Eliot, G.K.Chesterton. Rene Girard, C.S.Lewis, Flannery O'Connor, Dorothy Day...for they all held lamps in the darkness that helped me find my way to the church. As far as I know, not one of these was a minister or priest. Many were not leaders in their local churches, either, but they wrote what they knew, and I desperately needed to know what they knew.
It's a lot of work to write a book, it's a calling, and I think often of the generosity and sacrifice of authors. Like the song says, "they didn't have to do it".
There is another issue. I am in the music business, and I meet a lot of folks who for various reasons will never ever buy a book written by a pastor. They need to hear from someone they perceive as being "like them". Lay people like Tim HAVE to write, if they are called to do so, because they can build bridges that someone more "credentialed" cannot.
I owe a very great debt to
Madeleine L'Engle, T.S.Eliot, G.K.Chesterton. Rene Girard, C.S.Lewis, Flannery O'Connor, Dorothy Day...for they all held lamps in the darkness that helped me find my way to the church. As far as I know, not one of these was a minister or priest. Many were not leaders in their local churches, either, but they wrote what they knew, and I desperately needed to know what they knew.
Thanks for mentioning these authors. I was trying to think of some writers who were not "qualified" so to speak, and you came up with a great group.
I've taken a stab at the central question offered by Steve Camp, here. What qualifies someone to speak for God and His Word. I welcome your suggestions, responses, and rebukes where necessary.
There's a lot of stuff here. My observation:
Peter and the sons of Zebedee were common fishermen. Luke was a Physician... and a one-time slave. John the Baptist was a kook who baptized people who were already Jews (although his father was a priest)! Matthew was a publican. David was a sheep herder. Noah was a wine maker who was chosen to build a big boat and turn it into a zoo. Daniel was the chief astrologer in Persia. Moses left behind Pharaoh's schools to tend goats - and he couldn't even talk straight. Abraham took his inheritance from his father early (count the years of his father's life) and tried to kill his son of promise. Haggai married a prostitute.
Jesus was a mere carpenter.
Ont the other hand, Paul was a Pharisee of high theological training.
What credentials does Paul say are necessary to have spiritual discernment enough to teach about spiritual discernment?
Paul speaks loudly to those who call themselves 'Reformed' (past perfect indicative); who believe in theological degrees and seminaries (neither of which are mentioned in the NT, but hinted at in derision by our Lord):
"For who makes you to differ from another? and what have you that you did not receive? now if you did receive it, why do you glory, as if you had not received it? Now you are full, now you are rich, you have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God you did reign, that we also might reign with you... We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are honorable, but we are despised... I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have you not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." (Excerpted from I Corinthians 4:7-15)
I lived in Calvin's camp for almost a decade; never learned more in my 35 year stumble after Christ...but I also never saw such bloodshed and acrimony, either!
If you want a deadly accurate, yet tongue-in-cheek treatment of the 'Reformed' follies, see the "Reformed to the Nth Degree"
here on Blogspot.
Stick THAT in your MDiv and smoke it!
I'm sure Tim Challies' new book on discernment is just fine; he's a very gracious brother, though I don't always agree with his blog entries. But far more useful for the Pharisaical segment of this group would be the new edition of Frank Viola's book, "Pagan Christianity: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices".
Clergy and laity?
Worship 'services'?
Liturgy in church meetings?
Sermons at pulpits?
Basilica buildings for church meetings?
'Sacraments' when we meet?
Dressing up for 'worship'?
Paid clerics?
Priestly robes?
Wetting infants & calling it Christian baptism?
All of these traditions are PAGAN in origin; were reinforced by (formerly pagan) 'Church Fathers'; those folks that the 'Reformed' camp has equated with the canon of Scripture.
For Christ's sake, exercise discernment, brothers! Especially you who wear robes (or an MDiv on your regular sleeve), take care!
Tolle, lege.
If you decide to read Tim Challies' book, do read Pagan Christianity as well; I'll wager the latter work will tear your traditions to shreads, leaving you with...
Christ alone.
so did i come out of this the bad guy?
or does steve camp officially wear that title?
i was just curious, not condemning
Thank you, Paul Martin, for your example of self-control and maturity. Though I'm saddened that your entrance into the discussion ever became necessary, I believe your words are the only ones we needed to hear to settle the matter.
Thank God that He can, and does, do mighty works through simple, faithful, diligent, "untrained" men of integrity who are students of the Word.
Doug
I don't know what's more sad—the general tone of the comments here or that the most offensive are posted anonymously. Do we lack the conviction even to sign our names to our thoughts?
(Would the irony of posting this anonymously be appreciated?) :)
... if becoming a Christian leads to "heart transformation" and change of character, I just don't see it. In America or anywhere else. Comments here are simply further evidence.
Steve Camp? Dude, I've been to church before. I've heard your music and read your lyrics. They aren't very good. if anyone is unqualified to criticize someone else, it's steve camp. and apologize? c'mon. are christians really that naive?
oh wait. you think the resurrection really happened and isn't just a myth. i have some advice. instead of reading challies, pick up something, anything, by dom crossan.
To whomever you may be...
You’re right.
Some of my music and lyrics aren’t very good; but I do think some of it is. Even in some of those early records there are some songs that hold their own even today.
But the good thing with music these days is that if you don’t like a particular artist or group of songs, you can go to iTunes and pick from thousands that may offer something you will enjoy. As you know, you don’t have to buy an entire CD of songs from one artist, you can pick and choose which songs you like and make your own playlists.
If you email me your address, I will send you a few CD’s of mine that I know you haven’t heard with the hope that you might enjoy a few songs on them and most importantly, hear about our Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel.
Now, as to Dom Crossan, I have met him. It was a few years ago at a conference and teaching cruise. I spent a week with him and his wife along with Marcus Borg and his wife. I thought John was an absolutely charming and delightful man (and Borg too) and enjoyed several brief visits with them.
As to John's beliefs though, I couldn’t disagree more - they're not rooted in the biblical record or in historical fact.
You mention the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ as if its a truth to be easily poked at or discarded by whim. IT IS a weighty matter and the foundation for the entire Christian faith.
As Paul says, 1 Corinthians 15:13-18 “But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.”
I mean this sincerely, I will be praying for you today that the Lord would grant you saving faith, regenerate you unto eternal life, and as a result - that you would repent of your sins, flee the wrath to come, and by grace through faith in Christ alone, believe in Jesus and confess Him as Lord and Savior of your life.
Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin, and is God in human flesh. He died as a divine substitute on the cross for His own, and satisfied the holiness, justice and wrath of God that burns against our sin and we as sinners. He was buried in a tomb for three days, AND then rose bodily from the grave and lives today as reigning Lord and King.
I beg you to come to Christ this very day; trust only in Him for eternal life; for apart from Him you have no hope.. He alone is the only way, the only truth, the only life; no man comes to the Father, but through Christ.
You can try and use the ungodly comments by most on this thread to casually justify you staying in your sins. But that's all bs in the end...
Now is the day of salvation. Don't harden your heart while today is called today. Be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ the Lord.
Steve
2 Cor. 4:5-7
Steve,
Does A1M ministries have board of directors? Is there a group of officially recognized individuals that you are accountable to?
I notice that on your website you use the words "we" and "our" in the plural sense...I wondered which individuals made up the "we" of A1M...
Yes I have had a ministry board for years made up of primarily pastors that I am accountable to; and my own pastor too.
That is pretty standard with most Christian artists, speakers, preachers, etc.
That's good to know. Perhaps it would be helpful to list those individuals on your website. I always appreciate when ministries make known the breadth of theirleadership, rather than just the "face person".
I always appreciate a church that presents it's full leadership team, not just the pastor or pastors, and makes them available to the flock. Too many churches, IMHO, seem to hide their elders in the background. Not a healthy sign.
That's a good idea.
I greatly appreciate your thoughts and how you have expressed them here.
Thank you,
Steve
One might ask the question, "since when did the task of doing good theology and encouraging the brethren become strictly confined to pastors and Bible teachers?"
-Tom
Steve Camp,
I want to answer your questions and address a bit of your teaching here.
What credentials are necessary in representing the Lord and His truth in the public arena?
Answer: Being called or appointed by God. Many have addressed this, Jim Pemberton had a good reply but at the end of the day. God’s calling, touching ones lips with the coal, having one eat the scroll (Ez 3:1), studying the Word to present oneself to God as an approved workman. (2 Tim 2:15). All these fit.
What is the answer? I believe it is the leadership of the local church.
Answer: It doesn’t take a lot of research to see that the leadership of the local “church” down through history has been decidedly deadly to believers. All we have to do is look at them all the way back to Jerusalem and what we see is a steady stream of Martyrs and their blood flowing out the doors. It isn’t the world outside the church killing them it is the world inside the church doing the work. It doesn’t take a lot of insight to see that every new thing under the sun…wait…there are none of those. Maybe we just say every old heresy is recycled through the local church. The soup of today is Emergent. Wonder what it will be tomorrow?
But the local church is different. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Answer: The pillar and foundation of Truth is…THE TRUTH. THE WORD. God that became flesh and walked among us. (John 1). The very idea that you propose to replace something that is so perfect and subject Him to something so full of error is just preposterous.
ANY authority that you or anyone else claims to have to speak for God comes only from the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD. Any authority you claim to have from any other source, be it seminary, church, ordination or mail order credentials will never replace, or supplant God’s own election and choosing.
Come down off that pedestal and eat your self the scroll. The WORD. Until then you may want to look back over your posts (you too Don) and see if you don’t recognize a scribe or something worse.
PS. I am anonymous because you will not kill me till I have had my say. I also claim no authority or credentials outside the WORD. For now, you are going to have to evaluate me by what I say. Not the length of my robe or my hairstyle. By the way, I don’t get paid. I work because I love Him.
How old was Calvin when he first published 'Institutes?' 26.
Does being young automatically make a person theologically immature and untested in handling God's Word? If it does, I'll be sure to throw away my copy of Calvin's 'Institutes.'
Goodness...
Steve Camp making a name for himself.
I too think you (Steve) owe Tim Challies an apology, but, then, I am young and likely theologically immature.
And, to say that men like MacArthur and Mohler (Mohler, of all people) only "thumb" through the book is a statement which--even if this went unrealized--sounded very, very arrogant. The way you may review books is not necessarily the way they do.
Kudos to Tim Challies on finally writing a book. Considering his experience, and considering all the work he has done with the Discerning Reader site, I'd say he's earned a little credibility.
The absolute nerve. The absolute disrespect. You. I'm talking to YOU!!
Steve Camp is a man of God, beyond reproach. Does that sound a bell to any of you out there?
Whether you are a woman or a man, I don't care. Tim Challies could do with true biblical counselling, and less sucking up.
God bless you, Steve.
Jacques,
Whatever.
Steve,
I didn't see your latest apology, and I'm glad to see that. However, you still said a few things that just shouldn't have been said ("with grace" or "without grace"). As I said, you made it seem as if men like Mohler and MacArthur are not intelligent enough to review a book and comment on it on their own. Also, you criticized him for being young (Paul's advice to Timothy rings a bell: Not letting others look down on you for your youth).
I can, in fact, see the issue being raised. Should someone not an elder or pastor be placing themselves in a teaching position? That is the issue I would stick with.
Also, saying that Tim is "trying to get his 15 minutes of fame like the rest of us" is a heart judgment. I would be a little more careful. I would also be a little more specific about my apologies.
However, please note, I didn't see your initial apology in my first post, and I am in fact glad to see that, although more of one could have been hoped for.
Blessings!
This post has been removed by the author.
Steve,
Thank you for taking the time to comment, even to people who disagree with you.
I thank you that you had the courage, again, to speak out, and the truth at that. Yes, this is a time when one most feels ashamed to be called a 'Christian', due to others immature conduct and careless responses. Your witness, however, has at all times been an example of integrity.
Thank you, you continue to be a tremendous blessing through your ministry.
As Peter, writer of Holy Writ, encouraged us, we better be sure--Jacques--that we are being "persecuted" for the right reasons.
Anyway, I'm done here.
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